Breaking Free from Cultural Narcissism through Self Awareness with Darren Elliott

Raise your hand if you’ve scrolled social media and seen the terms “narcissist,” “gaslighting,” and “narcissistic abuse” thrown around like confetti. I know, me too.
It can feel like in our rush to name toxic dynamics, we’ve started pointing fingers everywhere other than to ourselves— what’s really going on?

This week I sat down with Darren Elliott to explore the pervasive cultural conversation surrounding narcissism. What we uncovered is less about calling people "bad" and more about understanding trauma, emotional immaturity, and the powerful dance of disconnection we all participate in. 

If you've been wondering how to stop the cycle—in your marriage, your family, or your community—this episode is a courageous starting point.
Tune in to learn: 

• How narcissism is actually a set of defenses we use to protect ourselves from disconnection. When one person starts lying or manipulating, we're more likely to "join their dance" by reacting with similar behaviors. The cycle starts when you react to their defensiveness with your own
• Narcissism is not only loud and argumentative. The calm, emotionally disconnected partner could be a narcissist too. 
• How to not f*ck up your kids (spoiler alert: by repairing conflict). What percentage of the time you need to show up calm and nailing it in parenthood. 
• A hidden form of  emotional abuse and narcissism.

🎟️Needing a day of self (soul) care? Rise and Flourish is October 25th in Deerfield Beach, Florida from 9am-5pm. Registration includes access to ALL workshops and breakouts, a day spa pass, healthy snacks throughout the day and more! 

Transcript

Ryann: 0:53

Hi, Darren. Welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.

Darren: 0:57

Thank you so much, Ryan. I'm really excited to be here.

Ryann: 1:00

This feels like our second episode. I think we had a first episode before this actual recording, which was awesome. The place I really want to kick us off is that narcissism, narcissistic abuse, narcissistic personality disorder, all of these terms and words seem to be very thrown around. I think we have kind of a pop psychology culture going on right now where everybody is like starting to use these terms like gaslighting and narcissist. And it seems that in a way, it's not doing us any favors because we're seeing these terms thrown around on social media. We're seeing them thrown around in relationships. We're seeing them, maybe some of us thrown around in, you know, therapy, pointing the finger at somebody else. And everybody's pointing the finger out, is what I'm noticing, and saying, you, you over there, you're a narcissist. And if everybody's saying that everybody's a narcissist, are we all walking around just like big narcissistic a-holes, Darren? Like what's going on?

Darren: 1:59

Good question. Yeah, narcissism, the term is being thrown around like candy and like an insult instead of an actual term. It's being weaponized rather than understood. Are we all narcissists? Well, here's the thing. When when we're operating with a narcissist, we end up joining their dance. In fact. So we are we are dancing in a narcissistic culture right now, and we're there's a lot of narcissistic things going on. And narcissism is essentially a collection of defenses that protects us from our disconnection. So if someone is lying to you and you know they're lying to you, you're actually more likely to lie back to them because they're lying anyway. If someone is cheating you, you're more likely to cheat them because they're cheating you first. Well, this is actually narcissism. And it's narcissism in how it's contagious because one person's being narcissistic, self-focused, defending, using things against you, gaslighting. It causes the other person over time to join that dance as well. So we've we've been watching it playing out in politics. I mean, narcissism has been playing out in politics for a long, long time. It's not like that's something new, but it's never been so blatant as it is today, truly. And narcissism, it's um, first of all, it's not a bad word. It is used as a bad word now. Yes, that's true. But it was a word that Freud used to describe the traits of children, actually. Not an insult that he would hurl at adults. It was to describe the childish processes that children grow out of. And when we're children, you know, we come into the world with our little eyes and ears and nose and mouth and our little senses, and we all we know is but what we see around us. So at first the world feels like it revolves around us. We don't we don't have this feeling of this big wide world out there. It's just, you know, mommy and daddy come into my picture and everything's revolving around me. That's one of the things that we're meant to grow out of, and not everyone does. The more we expand our world, the less narcissistic it's gonna be. Because diversity of experience is really actually good. But going back to the childish traits, children lack empathy. And that's that's normal for children. They're not a dysfunctional child to lack empathy. We have to teach the empathy to the child. In fact, it's a it's a higher level emotional skill. We humans were not born finished. We're born very, very unfinished. And so the finishing job happens after we're born, and it happens with mostly our family who we're with. It happens with the relationships that we have with our mom and our dad and the people around us. And really, we want to keep that emotional growth going. So it's up to us to all be finishing our brain in positive ways and growing out of narcissism. And that comes with having parents who feel with us, in fact, or caregivers who are able to feel with us in our emotions and to make our emotions feel safe. Also, the types of relationships that are modeled around us profoundly impact how we end up having relationships later in life. It's it's not that narcissism can't change, it's that people do not recognize they need to. That's that's why a narcissist almost never comes in for therapy because they are in blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame instead of taking accountability.

Ryann: 5:10

One of the things that I want to put a pin in is I heard you say when we get into a dynamic with a person who is narcissistic or has those tendencies or is lying and manipulating, we are consenting to the dance with them if we continue on with the lying and the deceit and the manipulation. And so I'm looking at it going, well, this is just like a big circle. If no one stops it, then it doesn't stop. Somebody has to say, I'm getting off this crazy making merry-go round. You can stay on it or you can come with me, but I'm out, right? And I think for so many of us here on this show, we're change makers, we're cycle breakers. And we've done that a lot of the times from our family of origin. Family of origins on this little spinny thing, looking at us, going like, no, come back on, come back on, right? And like sometimes at Thanksgiving, we like, you know, put our toe back on and we get caught up in the spinny thing and right. But how do we stop the cycle? Whether this is with a toxic coworker or with a toxic family member? How do we have enough courage and strength to look within and to say, no, I'm gonna operate with integrity. I'm not gonna lie, and nothing is worth it.

Darren: 6:29

We need to stop the cycle for ourselves with boundaries. Narcissism is built upon a traumatized worldview. And when I work with someone in that, we're working on their worldview as part of the healing because they really do believe, they really do have a me versus you orientation, an us versus them orientation. And that is part of what's wrong with that's what is going wrong. And it's it's the feeling that I'm right and you are wrong, those polarized responses, but also that you know, we are good and they are bad. That is a traumatized worldview. And it's it's happening with a lot of churches, in fact, where they they have the belief like we're good here, but out there no. Out there they're bad, but we're good in here, but don't trust out there a big evil world. The belief that others is evil is a common belief, but it's also a toxic belief. The belief that others is evil and has enabled abuse through the centuries, and it enables abuse today. But it also, if I think someone who's, for example, a non-Christian is evil, that causes fear. It causes it because it causes me to think, well, they might do bad things if they're evil. And when I feel fear, that turn it actually turns down my empathy. And actually, when I turn down my empathy, I turn down my care, my ability to love. And in fact, I can dehumanize people because I think they're evil. And that happened, I I'm I'm up here in Canada, so I'm I'm neither Democrat nor Republican. We're almost all in the middle. But referring to Canada because up here, when we were first establishing the colonialism up here, we came in with Christian ideals, with the us versus them mentality, and literally thinking that non-Christians were evil. And the the original people here, in fact, had very connected, loving processes, most of them. They were very much connected to each other and to nature. They had really democratic processes of living. But we absolutely dismissed their lifestyles as being heathen and savage. And so in Canada specifically, tens of thousands of children were removed from families and sent to residential schools. Many cases not allowed to speak their own language. So think about this five-year-old kid who's just been suddenly plucked up from his community, his family. Now he's in this school where he's surrounded by other kids who he's not allowed to communicate with. And when he tries to speak to his friend, he gets hit by nuns.

Ryann: 8:59

It makes me actually want to cry because I just cannot imagine. Like, talk about a hill to fucking die on, you know, like I just can't imagine the thought process that would make that think. That's okay. That sounds normal. What?

Darren: 9:16

Like the children died from cruelty.

Ryann: 9:18

Yeah.

Darren: 9:19

Just even from emotional abuse, children died. There's a you're I don't know, you'd probably be familiar with the the orange shirt day. Every child matters is what orange shirt day is about. And it came from a story of a woman who was herself sent to residential school. And the day she was sent to residential school, her grandmother gave her a special orange shirt for her first day at residential school because they didn't realize how evil and corrupt, in fact, the place is they were going. And the first thing that they happened to them when they arrived to this residential school, apart from not even being able to speak, was that shirt from grandma was taken away, never to be seen again. And taking away, in fact, the only connection they had to home. Children were separated from their families, eventually couldn't even speak their own language, and then dropped back into communities absolutely traumatized, not even able to communicate with their families.

Ryann: 10:18

What time frame was this? Is it to just it wasn't a long time? That's insane.

Darren: 10:27

That's crazy. The 60s scoop. If you want to, if anyone's curious about it, you call it the 60s scoop. And that was where they were scooping up all the kids thinking they were saving them from their families when they were essentially entirely traumatizing them. So I bring that up because we're dealing with a lot of trauma today. And trauma, what I have discovered in my work is when you have a traumatized generation above you. So they have, for example, complex post-traumatic stress disorder. So imagine granddad came back from war. He's traumatized, but he's expected to be happy. Aren't you happy to be home? Oh, isn't it wonderful you're home? Oh, yes, we're also happy. He was traumatized. He was pretending to be happy, but he was traumatized usually in very, very many cases. Trauma wasn't understood. And what would that look like? It would look like having trauma responses in his body. It would look like him being anxious and trying to not be anxious when he's feeling anxious. It would look like him being upset and trying not to be upset when he's upset. So this can go different ways. One, many of them learn to not feel their emotions because their emotions were just too big and too nasty and too horrible. And they learned to disassociate from their emotions. And that the keep calm carry on, which they had to do in the UK when you're being bombed every day. You can't literally be panicking all the time. You won't be able to get through. But that was meant for wartime. That was only meant for wartime. We are meant to feel all of our feelings and them not feel dangerous for us so that we can express them with each other and feel them with each other. And there are there are moral compass. But a whole generation really had the experience of learning to either not feel their feelings or to be overtly abusive. Being a dad who's explosive, who and at the very least, unable to resonate with their kids. So the ones who really, you know, were being great dads, the kid would come to them crying. They wouldn't be able to cry with their kid. You know, they don't go to sadness. So they're not going to go to sadness with their kid either. So they'll they'll try to fix it. Oh, don't be sad. It's okay. It'll be fine tomorrow. But there's no feeling with. And that feeling with is the empathy. And correction doesn't help them become emotionally mature. Here's the thing narcissism is emotional immature processes. And we don't get good at them by not doing them. I know it's a shock for some. You don't get good at soccer by not playing soccer either, Ryan. And it's just like you don't get good at that when men are not feeling their emotions, because and then they taught the next generation, then that's what you're supposed to do. To be a man means to not feel your emotions. It became like a this is what it means to be a man. I work with couples. And even when there's not narcissism involved, the most common issue I see with couples when it's when it's a woman and a man is the woman comes and she's she's she's like, he's a nice guy. He he goes to work, he helps with the kids. Sometimes he loads the dishwasher, but I feel so alone. I feel so alone. And the guy's sitting there is like, I have no idea. I do everything I'm supposed to do. She goes on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know what she's talking about. What I'm seeing is men who are emotionally disconnected from their emotions because they were taught they're supposed to be. And then their partners are emotionally alone because they are emotionally alone. And that's just not the way it's meant to be. So if your partner's crying and you're not able to be sad with them, they're emotionally alone. If you don't go to sadness, you don't go to sadness with others either. And that's lack of empathy. If you don't let yourself get upset, then you don't get upset with others either, and that's lack of empathy. So they'll have a fight with the partner and the partner's getting upset and they're just staying neutral and calm. And the partner gets more and more upset and more upset because they're staying neutral and calm. And then finally, you know, eventually they'll be finished with it and whatever. And then they think, isn't that finished? And we already talk about that.

Ryann: 14:17

So who's the narcissist in that dynamic? Because I feel like that dynamic is so common. So who would be the narcissist?

Darren: 14:25

The calm, disconnected one. Really? Okay. Yes. Okay. Narcissism causes borderline type responses. Okay. It's normal to have a dysregulated response if the person around you is not joining you in your emotions. And we're seeing this in a lot of families. Because when you have a generation that was traumatized before, you're learning your patterns from your parents. So dad's either super calm and collected, and you learn not to cry and you learn to be disconnected from your emotions, which causes narcissistic defenses to take care of you instead of regular connection. So, because when we're not feeling our connection with others, we actually need to feel better than because we're feeling so disconnected. And they go with, oh, I don't need them anyway. Oh, I'm smarter than her anyway. She's just, she's just being like this. That's devaluation, right? Dismissing the other's feelings. It causes narcissistic defenses when you're alone in your emotions. This is incredibly common. So kids are being learned to not feel their emotions with each other, but also they're watching the lack of connection between parents. If dad's never resonating with mom and it's mom just seen as too sensitive or overreacting sometimes, that's what I see most often. Certainly the reverse is true as well. I certainly have had the reverse true. I don't want to say that it's always men and women or sure. But but patriarchy is real. We are we are dealing with the the results of patriarchy with okay.

Ryann: 15:50

So I want to unpack this family dynamic a little bit. Because I think that so for us here who have partners, I have a husband and we have three kids, 10 and under. And then everybody else here who has a partner, they can kind of put their self in these shoes here of these relational dynamics with the partnership. And there's kids involved. How do we, as the person listening to this show, as the person wanting to learn about narcissism, learn how to take some personal responsibility and what part they're playing, whether they're consenting to the dance or not, or you know, really starting to come into their own power? How do we protect our children in a situation like this? Like what is kind of the go-to for protection or modeling? Is it just empathy? Is there more there? Like, what is it? Tell us how to not fuck up our kids, basically.

Darren: 16:43

So um when it comes to parenting, we need we we can get it right sometimes. We we need to get it right 70% of the time for the kids to be okay. So that there's 30% of the time where we get it absolutely wrong. Totally. We need to be modeling repair. Yes, we're gonna be a jerk sometimes. Even if we're well-intentioned and really sweet, we might get pushed to the edge because this has happened and this has happened and this has happened, and you you say something real mean to your kid, you know, you're you do, or you give a punishment that you regret having given because you're like, oh my gosh, that was really over severe. I was very upset when I did that. Don't double down. Come back to your child and say, you know what? I was really upset this morning and I grounded you for three weeks. And now that I'm thinking about it, grounding you for three weeks is a little too severe. I just want you to know that it's not okay to hit your sister. So that's that's one of the things is coming back for repair, making sure that we do not devaluate the child or the kid rather than the behavior, because that is how I work with narcissism as well. When I have a narcissistic dad come in, for example, we're all against the narcissism, we're not against the dad. We're all against the traits that are pushing people apart, and we're not against the person. And we all have to be on a team about this because them not being on a team is the whole crux. So when it comes to correcting children, for example, little Johnny heats hit Sally in the head with his school bag. And mom's like, bad boy, go into your room. That that's that's not gonna fix anything. So we need to address the behavior specifically so that we're not just shaming the child and sending them away to sit in shame, which is emotion that that they will end up having defenses against. And that is where we teach empathy as well. That's where we take and stop. And first, first of all, we have them calm down. We have them both calm down. And then that that's a teachable moment. Now imagine how you would feel if you were sitting there and you're you're you're doing your thing and all of a sudden a great big bag hits you on the head. Like we're meant, we need to talk them into the scenarios so they're allowing themselves to understand the impact of what they're doing, not just tell them they're bad and go to your room. So that is how we're learning empathy. We need to be coaching them through it. And if we're not coaching them through it, they may not get there. So if we're doubled down as a family, and you know, mom and dad are two individuals who are strong alone, we're not going to be able to do that. I have seen individualistic therapy make narcissism worse. And I have seen individualistic therapy make families worse because it literally taught everyone to be happy by themselves instead of working on the relational skills between them. So, in the case of a narcissist and their and their partner, and the partner's literally revolving around the narcissist, because that's what ends up happening. When someone's suffering from narcissism, they're not taking responsibility for their own emotions. So you end up taking responsibility for them instead. And what that looks like is as long as he's in a good mood, we're gonna have a great day. That that's what it looks like exactly. Wow. And that's so common. That is so common. Because if they're in a good mood, they're gonna, they're gonna be, they're gonna be nice, they're gonna be kind, they're gonna, you know, everything's gonna go well. But if something doesn't go their way, they're gonna be grumpy, they're gonna, they're gonna be annoying, or they're gonna be cold, or they're gonna detach. That's narcissism, in fact. And it's um it's invisible emotional manipulation that is extremely common. It's um, I often tell a narcissistic parent, however you're treating your partner, your kid is likely to be treated like that in the future, or to treat their partner like that.

Ryann: 20:33

Yeah.

Darren: 20:34

So, you know, because because they always think their partner, they either go into two different places. Here's another thing about narcissism people don't understand. There's a narcissistic split, which means we have this the positive version of ourselves that are able to join others and feel your your joy and have fun and have a great time together, and it's all wonderful. But then there's this also this negative part of us. And we all have we all have positive and negative, but in the case of narcissism, they're more divided. So there's a lack of object constancy, and that is one of the childish processes that doesn't get evolved out of the ability to hold two ideas true at the same time. So if your kid's four years old and they're mad at you, they're like, You're bad, mommy. I hate you. You're bad, bad.

Ryann: 21:20

You're the worst mom.

Darren: 21:22

And that's normal for that age, and it's okay. And you know, kids are narcissistic and they actually need to be able to be narcissistic and coached out of it rather than just don't be narcissistic. Yes, don't be selfish, don't be mean. They need to slowly learn that with coaching. Over time, we recognize when I'm angry that I'm still able to remember I'm angry at, and this is the person I love, and this is the person who loves me. So I'm able to hold my anger together because I'm I'm remembering at the same time that, and I love this person so much, and I'm really angry at them. A narcissist can't do that. They don't have that. When they're angry, the other part disappears and now they're just in their anger. And that's why they will either, one, they'll either launch into attack because they think you deserve it. An attack might look like devaluing, name-calling, gaslighting, or they'll be passive aggressive because they've learned to pretend they're happy when they're not. They've learned to keep that fake up. So now they're pretending to be friendly, but underneath they're like, oh, I'll get you later. I'll get you later. And they're plotting little revengeful things and vengeance. The traits that we call sins are all negative emotional traits that we should avoid and should not be nurturing. Things like jealousy and resentment, contempt, envy, these vengeance. These are all negative energy traits that that suck us into living in hell, basically, you know? Yeah. Versus living in love and kindness and connection. Fear divides us. I mean, that that's a that's a big part of what's going wrong today is the fear has ramped up. And fear is coming from all directions on Americans right now. It's it's not just coming from one direction, it's coming some from so many directions. And some of it's real and some of it's not real. And some of it's been weaponized. And that's that's a big part of what I'm working on right now, is Americans are a bunch of Americans. First, the division of us versus them, it's not really real. There's there's such a strong the blue and the red as if they're two separate groups of humans. It's like we're purple, people.

Ryann: 23:25

We're purple, we're purple.

Darren: 23:28

It's it's it's it's uh, you know, it's it's a it's uh narrow-minded. It's a very narrow view of who people are. It's yeah, it's a very Americans want to love each other. Most most of us people just want to get on in life and have good lives and to have friendly relationships and to enjoy their meals and to enjoy their life and to most people just want the same thing, you know? But a narcissist thinks others are out to get them. A narcissist thinks they're gonna cheat me, so I'm gonna cheat them first. Those are narcissistic viewpoints and we're we're we're living in them right now.

Ryann: 24:01

Yeah.

Darren: 24:02

If I experience my gender and my sexuality in a heteronormative way, for example, if I'm a man born as a man and I find myself attracted to women, if I'm not able to recognize other people might not have this same experience in their bodies that I have, that causes it causes fear. But it's it's also narcissistic. Why would you assume everyone else has the same feeling in their body about how they feel about themselves as you do?

Ryann: 24:29

Why do we assume that? Why why do we assume that everyone has the same experience as us? Is it just because of the way we're raised? Because I know a lot of us were told to stop crying, go to your room, bad girl, bad boy, and we were that was how we were raised. Like now I think our generation has a little bit of a hold on it, right? I focus on that was a really bad choice, you know? And uh when my literally almost four-year-old this morning said, Mommy, you're the worst. I hate you. It got down to his level and I said, No, I'm not, Nash. I love you. Don't say that to me. And I, you know, anyway, the whole point is I think we have a better handle on it. So why can't we understand like how somebody else is feeling? Or like, should I have said, like, hey, that really hurts my feelings when I said that. But honestly, it didn't hurt my feelings because he's a ch he's a three-year-old and I'm more mature than I know that it's not true.

Darren: 25:23

Yes, and if the narcissistic father would fight against that, possibly. Like how? You say such a mean thing to me. You can't say you hate your father. Go to your room. Yeah. It's um, but you you know, the recognition is wow, you must be really mad at me that you said that.

Ryann: 25:42

Yes.

Darren: 25:42

I guess, I guess you're really, really angry. You must be really mad. Yep. It's and it's it's it's and it's not nice to say you don't love mummy. You forget that right now, but in fact, we love each other. You know, just a little reminder that in this moment you're not feeling it. You're just feeling the hate. Because kids say kids do have the split that I'm referring to. In fact, when they're happy, everything's wonderful. And when they're grumpy, tired, everything's bad. You know, and it swings quick. It is they need to be well rested, you know, they that and well fed because hangry can take them over there too. Squinch your eyes when you're listening to the Oval Office, you will hear an angry five-year-old devaluing others, blaming others, gaslighting, literally in that that angry five-year-old stuck self. That that becomes a place where people live.

Ryann: 26:32

Why have we accepted this? Like, why have we said this is okay? Because where we are today as a culture, I think from where I'm standing, regardless of who's in office, why are we consenting to this dance? Why are more of us not saying, nope, we're not doing this?

Darren: 26:50

Well, part of it is is the narcissistic worldview. That's part of it. Truly believing that the others are lying when they are not.

Ryann: 26:58

Okay.

Darren: 26:58

So that I will lie as well because they're lying anyway.

Ryann: 27:02

Okay.

Darren: 27:02

So Okay.

Ryann: 27:03

So that makes sense.

Darren: 27:04

Because we saw that a lot. We saw that, you know, yeah, assuming others are cheating enables me to cheat. Assuming like all those, it's just a it's just a traumatized worldview that needs healing, honestly. And it's emotional immaturity.

Ryann: 27:19

Right.

unknown: 27:19

Right.

Darren: 27:20

And if that's what dad looked like, if dad was emotionally immature with CPTSD, because it looks almost the same, um, then we're not going to notice it in the president too much. It's like, oh yeah, he's kind of like dad. Oh, it's just sort of like Aunt Sally. Like, you know, always always just saying what he says, just doing what he does, you know. Oh, don't listen to him. As the rest of the world watched that become a role model, it has been horrific to watch. Much of the world has been watching a slow motion train wreck since really slow motion going down fear, going down fear, going down fear, going down fear. America's on a fear pass of not trusting each other or being afraid of each other. And, you know, right now, I'm just hoping this can be the bottom. Let's make right now the bottom. Let's not keep going down the fear path. And right now, everything has come up. Now we can see very clearly, oh, racism is still here with us very strongly. You know what? Racism is a trauma response in your body towards someone's race. And that needs to be dealt with rather than propagated. Fear of others. We're seeing what fear of others is doing right now. You know, we humans, we're part of nature. Diversity is a natural part of nature. We are a part of nature, and diversity is a natural part of our species.

Ryann: 28:36

Right.

Darren: 28:37

The fear, the fear of diversity is one of the scapegoating things that's that's causing fear and division now. In 2016, I spent three months in Arkansas, and at the time, Canada was was rewriting some laws to make sure that trans people were protected as human rights because they're humans. So they hadn't been singled out yet in 2016. So our legislation was singling out to make sure trans people had the same rights as everybody else because they're humans. And what I heard daily in Arkansas, I heard it again and again and again, was the abomination up in Canada where they are forcing the values of transsexuals onto their entire population. I don't know if you can hear the twisting and corruption of the actual facts. There was no forcing of transsexual values on anyone. There was these humans, which happen to make one in a hundred humans, are being given rights so that they're safe from hate. So they can't be fired for how they experience themselves in their body. So they so they can't be evicted for how they feel experience themselves in their body, because they're just a part of diversity. And the fear and the rhetoric and the made-up ridiculousness that trans people are dangerous, that they, you know, they want to use their the the woman's bathroom for some kind of evil thing. They just don't want to get beat up in the men's bathroom. That's really all that's going on there. But do you But they're trying to live their lives, you know?

Ryann: 30:17

Like when you say that, I'm going, who's the person who's beating somebody up in the bathroom? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I, and we talked about this before we hit record, is that there's such a responsibility at the local level, at the home level, at the neighborhood level, at the community level to grow our children in a way that everybody's kind. Like it all starts at home. And so I'm going like, is this a political problem or is this a culture problem? Is this a humanity problem that people are beating people up who don't look like them or who don't think? Like them. Like to me, that's where I always go. And that's why politics, that's why I honestly really like opt out. I'm like, how about we start a grassroots movement of growing up our kids in a loving way so that nobody goes up and hits somebody for being different than them? Like, to me, like that's the problem, you know?

Darren: 31:19

That is the problem. Things have been used against us. For example, all the sexuality fears and the gender identity fears. It's not contagious. It is not contagious. Your child is not more or less likely to become gay or trans because of knowing someone who's gay or trans. They're not more or less likely to become gay or trans from having seen it on television or from watching Rupal's Dragon Race. There's absolutely no correlation there. But there is a really high suicidality rate if kids are hiding because they're so afraid to let anyone know that they're experiencing their world as gay or trans. And that causes mental health issues. Absolutely. And I I want to bring this up because of because I'm working with narcissism, and because the main problem that happens is people don't recognize they're suffering from narcissism, so they never get help. It's always their problem, right? When I'm working with a couple, the guy's always shocked to realize, like, in fact, sir, what I'm watching in front of me. She's lobbing this over and you're twisting it and sending it back. And then she's trying to send you another ball, and then you're twisting it and sending it back. And he's like, What? Like, yeah, you're living in an alternate reality where you're filtering her.

Ryann: 32:31

If someone's wondering, am I a narcissist? What would you tell them? Because I think you were about to say, like, that everybody's, you know, putting off the responsibility on somebody else. But what if everybody thought, like, huh, what part am I playing in this? Am I a narcissist?

Darren: 32:45

We need to be able to take accountability for our impact on others. And because a narcissist doesn't tend to recognize themselves, they don't realize they have any problem because they've they've doubled down against feeling negative emotions. So if you're not avoiding negative emotions, you're also avoiding those feelings of guilt that actually drive your moral compass to realize I hurt someone.

Ryann: 33:07

I see.

Darren: 33:07

You're avoid you're you're not able to feel that. They're doubling down against, like, oh, you're just being sensitive. Instead of actually taking in that I just hurt my wife's feelings and now she's crying, they don't allow themselves to feel with that feeling because it's not a feeling they go to. And so they make it into your fault.

Ryann: 33:24

We're all just asking to be met halfway. Like, here I am in my humanity, feeling what I feel, experiencing what I'm spiriencing. Can you meet me halfway? Right?

Darren: 33:34

Exactly. So because of because because waking up is is such a hard, difficult hard thing. I'm an embodiment actor from from university days. So I I've created a character who embodies being a recovering narcissist. And also because drag is under attack right now. My my character is a drag character called Doreen. And Doreen is a recovering narcissist. And she shares openly about her inner experience in a way that when people hear her, they're not defended. They're just listening to her make fun of her own narcissism. But I've I've already talked to people who have woken up to recognizing that they're actually like Doreen. And that's the whole point of Doreen is that she's showing them not only this is what's going on for you, because that's what I do with clients. You know, a client comes in and they they think they might be a narcissist. Well, I end up in my conversation with them because I know they're guarded and they're not telling me actually what's going on. I'm guessing, are you thinking this right now? When I said this, did you feel like that? When I said that, did you feel like this? And I make enough guesses that they actually realize, like, okay, okay, you can see behind the screen. And then they let me in behind the screen. And then it's it's like I'm the first person in their inner circle ever, actually, in some cases, because I'm already, I'm already seeing the processes that are going on and I'm not judging them for it. Narcissism isn't an evil word, these are emotionally immature processes. And growing up emotionally is actually the answer. And we we don't grow up emotionally by not feeling our feelings, especially men don't get good at emotions by not feeling their emotions. It keeps emotional immaturity ruling. We need to be able to feel our emotions with each other and not feel them as dangerous, and and to be able to do this with our neighbors and our friends and our families. And that is the work.

Ryann: 35:30

Yeah. Are there narcissistic women too? Because we've talked a lot about men. Yes. Is there a stat? How is it split? Is it like 50-50 or is there more?

Darren: 35:39

It's more 50-50. I think the stat is like two-thirds men, one-third women.

Ryann: 35:44

So it's less in women. Why do you think that is?

Darren: 35:46

Because the traits that we've decided are feminine are the opposite of narcissism. It it's um Okay. So we learn to communicate and and eventually we're we learned we learned to feel with each other. So you come to me crying and I feel your sadness with my own sadness. Or you come to me excited and I join your excitement. Someone who's suffering narcissism is able to join the positive ones, but not the negative ones.

Ryann: 36:12

I see.

Darren: 36:13

So we we need to be able to feel in with this full range of emotions. Women do that more.

Ryann: 36:18

Yeah.

Darren: 36:19

Because for we're not socialized out of feeling. So many men were taught not to feel by their dads. Right. They were just taught to be a man means to be stoic and not get upset or to not get but that causes a lot of men to only be in touch with anger and out of touch with all the other things. Well, when it comes to negative emotions, right? They'll you know they'll have fun and do all the good things, but sure. They might avoid loneliness, they might avoid um, you know, the sadness.

Ryann: 36:47

Sadness, frustration, overwhelm, even maybe. Why does it seem like narcissists have a false sense of pride, like an overly inflated ego, but yet they're feeling probably pretty small and scared inside, like that five-year-old that you referenced. Why can't they be humble? Why do they have to be like proud and just like stoic, like you said?

Darren: 37:09

Yeah, that's one of the defenses. A narcissist is living in a state of disconnection, not fully connected with others. And when we are in a disconnection, we need narcissistic defenses to be okay with that. And part of that often looks like, oh, I don't need them anyway. Oh, I'm smarter than them. Almost everything is in shades of gray. The correct or incorrect, the good and the bad, the right and the wrong, the white and black, these are all polarized responses. And that's that's part of what's going wrong.

Ryann: 37:38

I think as parents, we have a really strong responsibility to help our kids feel our feelings. And honestly, like the good news and the bad news is that it starts with us. Like, if I can't have a tantrum myself and cry on the floor when I'm really sad or raging or healing from something in my past, then how am I gonna be present for my toddler when he's having a tantrum or for my tween when she's arguing with me because she disagrees with me? I mean, you don't, I mean, you don't have to agree with me just because I birthed you. Like, you don't have to see the way I see with every single thing. Yes, are there boundaries? Yes, are there expectations? Of course there are. And also, like, there has to be some room for us as parents and leaders, really, to allow for another point of view, a hard emotional experience. Like we get to allow that.

Darren: 38:32

Yes. And we we need to model dealing with our emotions and feeling with our emotions because there, there's it's not the same to not feel your emotions versus to feel your emotions and convey it in a way that's healthy. I can be extremely angry at you. Doesn't mean I'm launching into yelling at you, doesn't mean I'm devaluing you, doesn't mean I'm calling you stupid, doesn't mean I need to raise my voice, or it doesn't mean I need to walk away and give you the cold silent treatment, which is also a form of abuse, actually. Um that's a common, common form of abuse. And I want to point that out just while we're on the topic. You know, if you're it's neglect, but yeah, that it's stonewalling. That's a common one of narcissism. When they're angry at you, that they'll they'll treat you like you're not there or they're not talking to you, or you know, that's devaluation in that moment. You don't deserve my attention, you know. And the person on the other side does feel devalued and does feel like they don't mean anything to them and does feel worthless. It's it's abusive, in fact. We're meant to feel our angry and and learn how to convey that. Be like, I am so angry at you right now, I am leaving the house and I will be back when I'm calmer. It's not that we need to be acting out in the moment that we're super angry. No, that's not the time to make any decision. Because when we're angry or afraid, it's turning off big hunks of our brain. So you're not fully with us. People do and say things when they're angry that they do not mean, but it still has impact. And that's where that's where it goes very wrong for a lot of narcissists. And I can tell you, I came into this topic very honestly. I came from a narcissistic family system. So it's just something I've adapted to.

Ryann: 40:13

Your work in the world is so important. I find that you're not being judgmental of somebody who has narcissistic tendencies. Like if somebody's like, do I have those tendencies and they're listening to this, I don't see them feeling judged or shamed or anything like that. I feel like you come to it with a lightness, and that's so helpful for me, and I know for everybody listening. Whoever wants to come find you and follow you and get your book. Oh my gosh, I love the title, The United States of Disconnection: How narcissistic power is dividing our homes, politics, and culture, and what we can do about it. That is such an amazing title. As we're recording this, it's been out in the world for two weeks. Where do we get your book? Where do we learn about the narcissism recovery project and love loops also?

Darren: 41:01

It's available on Amazon. That's where you can get it today. You could type in the United States of Disconnection. It's it's the first book because in therapy, we understand we need to understand and name what is happening is the first step in change. We can't have change just by wanting change. We need to first understand, oh gosh, this is what's happening now. The United States of Disconnection is about waking up to what is right now so that change is possible, so we can make a different choice. Since this book came out, it's so big. I'm actually writing a smaller version of it that'll be um a little more palatable. But I'm also working on another book called Project 2035: Love versus Fear, the choice is ours. And trust has been broken. Trust it takes developing, right? If we're just afraid of our neighbor and we never talk to them, we're not going to develop trust with them either. We need you the the the change here is reaching for your neighbors and introducing yourself if you didn't already. You know, that's where the change happens. The change happens from talking to the person down the street instead of walking by with feeling afraid of them. So loveloops. We're supposed to be leaning on each other. We're supposed to be supporting each other. And right now we're tearing each other apart. So if everyone reached for their neighbors to heal that relationship, America could come back together and go down a different path and get off the fear path.

Ryann: 42:26

Yeah, I so agree with you. That's why I always say we can change the world by starting at home. I do believe that it starts at home and then it starts in our neighborhood, and then it starts in our school and our communities, and it gets bigger from there. I really believe the power of the ripple effect, and I know that's what you are doing with your work as well. So thank you for that. I'm gonna ask you the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the interview now, kind of like rapid fire style. And the first question is what, if anything, are you reading right now?

Darren: 42:55

Complex PTSD workbook. This is something I use, I refer to quite a lot with clients, and I'm um, because we all need to be on a healing path. And this is one of the things. Complex PTSD looks like narcissism and it looks a lot like it. And we all we all need to be reaching for personal growth things. In 2025, to feel anxious and depressed is a natural reaction to the world. So we need to be on a personal growth journey to not be anxious and depressed.

Ryann: 43:23

The second question I have for you is what's bringing you joy today?

Darren: 43:26

What's bringing me joy? Well, the first thing that came to my mind was my dog that's under my feet.

Ryann: 43:34

Pets are like that.

Darren: 43:36

I I feel joy connecting to my passion. Honestly, being here and talking about narcissism, which is a topic people say is so morbid and nasty. And you know, even therapists are like, oh, narcissism. It's like, but it's my passion subject because it it has so much possibility when we understand it. You know, I feel the hope when I'm talking about it because I can see this path that we're not on right now that we can be on. And I feel excited for it. Like I can, because I see people change in my practice. I see people choosing love over fear. I see people choosing personal growth. I can see the potential. So I feel I do feel so excited here and I do feel joy in this subject.

Ryann: 44:14

Amazing. It comes out. You're very passionate, and that's awesome. Yes. And then the last question I have for you, Darren, is who or what has taught you the most?

Darren: 44:23

Who or what has taught me the most? Oh my gosh. My relationships have taught me the most, I guess. That would be true. I I can say church taught me a lot. I'm not a I'm not a church attender, in fact, but it did teach me how love and connection and kindness are where we thrive. You know, I I came to understand like they are places where we're taught to be safe and and where we're taught to share what's going on for us in a lot of cases. And that is what we're meant to be like with others. We're meant to lean on each other, we're meant to share vulnerably together. And a lot of people have learned that at church. So, you know, come in and it's like, what's going on for you? And you say what's going on for you. And then the person's listening, that's called active listening. And then they're repeating what you said, that's called active listening, and then they're showing compassion. Jesus, please bring some joy to Darren's heart. He's so sad right now, and we love him so much. Sharing that. People do that at church. Do it at home. Do it, do it with your neighbor. Don't just do it at church. Those are good things. Churches are meant to preach love, and when we love each other, things go well. Jesus loved everyone. He didn't say love everyone except your trans neighbor. He washed the feet of prostitute. Like he loved everyone. It was never about judging, it was never about rejection. There's just so much fear. There's so much fear, and love is the opposite of fear, but we can't get there without the trust and the vulnerability. So practicing trust and vulnerability and connection skills are how we get back to love.

Ryann: 45:52

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Darren, for this conversation.

Darren: 45:55

Thank you so much for having me, Ryan. I appreciate it.