Shifting the World From Inside with Bob Martin

In this enlightening conversation Bob Martin, JD, MSW, CMT is here to explore the transformative power of meditation, discussing its potential to change lives and...even the world. Bob shares his journey from a high-powered lawyer to a meditation teacher, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and emotional intelligence. They delve into the challenges faced by students in adopting meditation practices, the nature of suffering, and the antidotes to it.

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Learn More About Bob's Story 

Keywords
meditation, mindfulness, personal growth, emotional intelligence, education, suffering, compassion, self-awareness, mental health, transformation

Chapters
00:00 Transforming Lives Through Meditation
02:45 The Journey from Law to Mindfulness
06:05 Understanding Meditation and Its Benefits
10:06 Student Experiences and Challenges
14:56 The Nature of Suffering and Its Antidotes
32:11 Finding Balance and Authenticity in Life

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

That process of just watching your thoughts is where all of that stuff about peace and tranquility and tinkle tinkle crystals and that whole it that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about quieting your mind or having an empty mind or something like that.

Ryann 0:25

Welcome to the Racing Wild Hearts Podcast. I'm so glad you're here listening in as I get to the heart of the matter with the world's leading experts and authors in personal growth, transformation, positive psychology, and more. If you're a change maker, a psychobreaker, a revolutionary envisioning a more beautiful way to live, work, and flooding, well, me too. I'm your host, Ryan Watkin, and for the past decade, I've been alchemizing challenges to find the home in the chaos. I believe we can change the world by starting at home in our own minds and hearts. And my hope is that these conversations are light on your path to Let's Go Wildlands. Hey friend, it's Ryan. I'm so glad you're here for today's interview. Today I am joined by Bob Martin. Bob's uncommon journey takes him from a high-powered criminal trial lawyer during Miami's cocaine cowboy era to a healing mindfulness coordinator, certified meditation mentor, and published author. At 74, Bob draws from his diverse experiences as a criminal lawyer, restaurant owner, corporate consultant, and a community leader to guide others towards clarity and peace. Currently serving as a professor of wellness and mindfulness coordinator at Elon University, Bob blends Taoist teachings, brain science and psychology to help individuals break free from limiting beliefs. His story of transformation offers powerful insights to resilient fulfillment and a meaningful life. So you already know this conversation will be profound. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Bob and I talk about a whole lot. We talk about first teaching kids meditation. We talk about how college students experience and respond to meditation. We talk a little bit about Bob's former career. We talk about happiness, resilience, suffering, and so much more. I hope you all enjoy this conversation as much as I did. If you're new here, make sure you're following along on Spotify or subscribed on Apple Podcasts. And if you feel super inspired and know someone who this conversation would benefit, send it on over to them. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for supporting the show week after week. And if you're feeling inspired and you haven't done so already, I know so many of you have, but if you haven't done so, go ahead and leave a five-star review. And rating your words mean the absolute world to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

All right, let's jump in. Please note the opinions and perspectives of guests on the Raising Wild Hearts podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of Ryan Watkin or anyone associated with the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.

Ryann 3:13

Hi, Bob. Welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ryann 3:19

Yeah, I'm so excited to have you. And it was really fun doing research on you. You have a really cool background that I was very uh curious about. And I'm gonna start though with one of the things that you said. And this is a big claim, Bob. You said if kids were taught meditation even as early as kindergarten, we could change the world in one generation. And I am so into that because I say here on this podcast that we can change the world by starting at home, and I do believe that it's true. So, how can we change the world in one generation with meditation?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

So uh I teach on campus. We uh Elon University finally um uh gave me a two-credit course, and so I get 15 college kids every semester. Um, and I love that. Uh, of course, I have my private practice uh where I teach all kinds of folks, but then I do some pro bono work where I work with uh some kids coming out of the foster uh system or the juvenile justice system, and these kids could be anywhere from nine to 12, 13, 14 years old. So anyway, there was a fellow, one of my one of my kids, uh call him Jamie. Uh and so the way that we the way that we teach is I I meet with them for an hour, an hour and a half once a week. And then um Duke University has developed this digital infrastructure, this great app that uh they get, and they get all of the guided meditations are on the app, and then they they they listen to their guided meditations and they log it, and those logs come to my dashboard, and I get to give them feedback every single day, which makes this method of teaching way different from most others, because every single day they get something back from me. Anyway, we're in our weekly meeting, and Jamie uh is talking about things that happened the week before. Jamie says, So I was out on the playground and uh Sammy pushed me down and uh got me really mad. And the first thing that I noticed was that my cheeks were burning. Uh so I went over and I sat down on the bench so that I could pay attention to my cheeks. And then I started doing my breathing, and I thought if I go and if I hit him, we'll never be friends. And so I let it go. That's coming from a 12-year-old kid in the foster parent system. So if you can get that out of two or three weeks of meditation, just two, just two or three weeks, 10 minutes a day, and you can make that kind of a change, I say you start in kindergarten, you change the world in one generation.

Ryann 6:21

Yeah, I'm with you. That's a beautiful story. And to imagine, as you were talking, some of the hardships that Jamie must have faced in his life and still faces on a daily basis is um it's big stuff, you know, someone without a family, without parents to, you know, really guide and protect and nurture. And for him to be able to source that safety and that calm from within, um, I'm with you. That one generation of changes.

unknown 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

And, you know, I mean, I I I I literally get my life out of the changes that I see happen. Uh, you know, not only is this way of teaching meditation great for the students, but you can imagine what it's like for me. I get, I get, I mean, just think about this. Every semester, I get 15 minds that I get to look into and see their daily thinking and see, you know, what works and what doesn't work, and the discoveries they make, and and they start to break out of the conditioning, uh, and and and all of a sudden they go, Oh, oh, you mean I really have a say in my life? You know, it's it's it it it's it's such a gift that I have been given.

Ryann 7:43

Yeah. So when you say you can see their thoughts changing or see kind of these patterns falling away, are they logging some sort of progress in this app? Or are you like reading their minds? Like, what's going on here?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

No, no, no, that's what that's what I'm saying. They're logging. They they log. The app opens up, they do their 10 minutes, and then they will write a log. And maybe the log will say something like, Oh, this was a terrible meditation because there was a dog barking, and I was really distracted. And all I could do is think about how mad I was at the dog for getting me away from it because it was a bad day anyway, and blah, blah, blah. And so I get up at four o'clock in the morning, every morning, and I sit down and I read the logs because they come to my dashboard through the app. And then I'll respond to that by saying something like, uh, well, you think it was a bad meditation. I think it was a great meditation. You noticed, not I mean, yes, you got angry. Okay, most of the time we just get angry, but you noticed that you got angry. Yeah, that's something that's brand new. Now you're learning that you can actually notice your thinking. So that was that that you just took a huge giant step forward. That was wonderful. That was great. And that goes back to his app. And before he meditates the next day, he gets that comes up and he gets to see that before his next practice. So yeah, I get to I get to see inside their minds.

Ryann 9:15

That's really cool. So your journey started as a high-powered, prestigious lawyer for basically, if I'm understanding this correctly, help me break it down. You were helping get criminals off the line. Yes, you were defending criminals.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

That's how that's how I started. But then of course I went out and went out in private practice, and of course, you know, you you work for the state, you prosecute, you work for yourself, you defend. So I became a defense attorney when I went out and on my own. Okay. And one of the fellas that we prosecuted, um, part of the mob slash cartels slash Cuban slash Haitian conglomerate of Miami during those cocaine cowboy days, those 70s, um, we hit them up for a lot of money. And when I went out in private practice, they came to me and walked right into my office, sat down, and said, uh, you know, you hit us for a lot of money. I go, okay. Anyway, long story short, they felt I was a pretty good lawyer to be able to beat their lawyers, and so they started hiring me and sending me clients.

Ryann 10:30

Ah. Okay. And what did you learn from that time in your life? Like what did you walk away with? And why did you walk away from that career, too?

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Well, what I what I learned is that um it's kind of like Don Corleone said in The Godfather, I just want you to tell me the bad news first. Um what I learned was that you don't you don't put off you know things that are uncomfortable. You deal with them. You you know, and that that was why we were able to work together for years, because if there was something that was going to go badly, I just told them that's gonna go badly for you. There's you know that's that's just gonna be it. And it was the authenticity and the honesty and the you know straight-upness, you know, about dealing with them. And so, you know, you carry that over into the rest of your life. Um, because you know, we all have a tendency to kind of sugarcoat stuff and the like. And so I find that it makes life a lot easier if you just deal with the discomfort. And then the side effect, I suppose, that that comes out of that is you begin to develop a tolerance for discomfort. It's how you build up your discomfort muscles so you can handle more things that at one time were a little bit too uncomfortable to handle. The way I guess I could say it the easiest is that at one time I did not like to go to funerals. I still don't like to go to funerals, but I wouldn't go to funerals because they were just uncomfortable. I didn't know what to say. And you build up your tolerance for discomfort, and all of a sudden you find, oh, my friend lost their mom. They're hurting. Uh I I I just need to go and sit with them. You know, maybe uncomfortable still, but you can handle it. And so you do that, and then you can sense that just your very presence, just being there, you know, made a difference for them. And then it's kind of like a feedback circle. It made a difference for them, and then you saw that your presence did make a difference, and so you're more inclined to do it the next time, just out of that kind of selfish feel-good feeling that you get when you help somebody else feel good. Yeah, that makes any sense.

Ryann 13:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's fulfilling. So, would you say that's like the whole goal of meditation to actually sit with yourself and your feelings?

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yes, and no. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and it there's more to it. And there and yes, and I would say not, I would say yes and so I guess the you know, there's a couple of different stages. You know, your your basic uh skill building process, what you do when you start, um, is you you start just by sitting uh with your thoughts. And you say, well, so what's the benefit of that? And I guess the benefit of that is that if you sit with your thoughts, and I'm not talking about a long time here, we're not talking about you know going to a mountaintop and waiting three years to get enlightened or something. I'm talking 10 minutes a day for a couple of days. Uh, and you just take that time and sit with your thoughts, all of a sudden you come to this realization that you're not your thoughts. And that you actually have the ability to watch your thoughts. You know, the scientists call it metacognition, thinking about your thinking. So it's all about developing the skill. Most of us do that. I mean, you've done it, you know, you've done it when you're having a conversation and there's another little voice in your head saying, oh, this isn't going well, or oh, I'm really making good points here. And you've got those that little commentary going on in your head about the conversation that you're in. Well, you're meditating. That's meditation. But the only difference is that that happens kind of automatically and it's outside of any intentionality. Whereas in when we sit down in meditation, we open ourselves up to having that experience and being in that experience with some intentionality so that we become more familiar with it and it becomes a skill rather than just something that happens to pop up accidentally into our heads. And the more familiar you get with being in that place where you're watching your thoughts, the more stability you find. Let me put it this way. Kind of like in life, it's like we're we're we're riding on a log down a river. And if the river's calm, then life is la dida, you know, life is but a dream. Uh but then there are times when there's white water, and there's times when there's waterfalls, and there's times when your whole house is being swept away by a flood. Um, and so there's all these different times. Now, when you're on the log and you're in the river, there's not a whole lot of sensation that I have any control over any of this. The river's gonna be what the river's gonna be. From the place of being on the log, life's a roller coaster, and it will never not be. You will always have the sensation of being on the log that doesn't go away. But from that place where you're watching your thought, it's like a little piece of you, like you know, a little um uh uh what did Superman call it? Claude Kent, uh he called it his uh alter ego. You have this like little alter ego that can climb up on the bank of the river and watch you going down the river. And from that place, you find that you're not as thrown by your emotions, you're more stable, you can evaluate things a little better, you have more of a say, you know, you can watch and and see how you responded to something and say, hmm, that didn't go so well. And so maybe the next time it comes up, you might act a little differently, or or the next time, or the next time, you know, or whenever. But that process of just watching your thoughts is where all of that stuff about peace and tranquility and tinkle tinkle crystals and that whole thing, that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about quieting your mind or having an empty mind or something like that, right?

Ryann 18:43

And I think that's what people think meditation is supposed to be, that they have to sit on a cushion and they have to empty their mind and no thoughts. And so, of course, they get frustrated because it's almost impossible, as many of us know. The thoughts just keep coming. Uh yeah, and I think you know, the monk on the mountaintop has the easy route because I've got three kids under 10. And it is a spiritual practice to get everybody with shoes on and out of the house in time. I mean, it is the work to be in life and have all these things going on and the people that you love and the people that you don't love around you. And to um witness yourself on that log every day. I'm like, I would take a mountaintop for a month anytime. That would be the easy way out.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

You're so right. You are so, so right. Yeah.

Ryann 19:38

So I'm so curious how your students are responding to this. You said, like, finally they let me do a class. So I wonder if there has been any pushback. I think meditation is becoming more mainstream. And I'm wondering, so that was like from the college, they finally let you do a two-credit class, which is so cool. And I just like wish I had this in college because um it probably would have helped my experience quite a bit. Um, so I'm curious how these 19, 20, 22 year olds are responding to these ideas that are probably pretty new for many of them.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a great question. So um, of course, it's it's an elective, of course. No, nobody's gonna be required to take it. So everybody is self-selecting. So then you might say, well, who who is choosing to take this course? And for the most part, I find that um I I have perfectionists, uh, I have a lot of overwhelm. A lot of overwhelm. Yeah. Um, and then um sometimes I have some good procrastinators. Um, and and uh so it's folks that you know just have an internal sense that you know there's there's more to it than this. And I wish, you know, I wish that I had uh a more skillful way of living life. And um so uh some of my some of my students, you know, they take to it like fish water. I mean, they get it right away, boom. And and and we just have because we have that daily interchange, some of those interchanges, you know, are just absolutely delightful. Um, but you know, also they also are a little bit of nudging every day is a little bit of nudging, a little bit of pushing, you know. So, like usually the first couple of weeks, they're all using the words concentrate, focus, um, distracted. They're using those words a lot. And most of the first two weeks, all my all my feedback is well, maybe let's let's that word focus carries a lot of baggage with it, you know. I mean, if if you can keep focus, it's good. And if you lose focus, it's bad. And so let's maybe we can use a different word instead of focus. Let's say maybe my mind wandered, okay, instead of that. So just getting a different language into their heads, you know, over the first couple of weeks so that they can kind of stop, um not stop, so that they can start to notice how judgmental they are. And I when I say they, I don't mean they, I mean we. You know, I mean we are all got judgments going like all the time. Now, fortunately for me, you know, as a practitioner, I I still have all those judgments, but they kind of faded into like the same kind of background noise that a siren in the city is. You know, and you're in the city and you hear sirens, yeah, it's just background noise, you know, it's blah, blah, blah, blah. And I don't have to operate on it. But these kids are are really thrown by all of that. Um, the judgments they have. And there was this one young young lady who I noticed wasn't logging. Now and I'm thinking, well, she took the course voluntarily, so she she must have felt she had a need for it. And I'm sure that she knows that when you go to a gym, you can't just look at the machines, you know, you gotta get on them. So uh and so why is she not practicing and logging? So I I I I called her, asked her if she'd stay after class once, and we had a conversation. And um I mean, although I have a master's in social work and I um I'm a licensed clinical social worker, I'm not there as a social worker, I'm there as a meditation teacher. So we're gonna use the meditation tools to try to work through whatever is going on with her. And uh it started out with uh kind of an admission that, yeah, I generally know what I need to do, and I and I just don't ever seem to you know get it together to do it. And um so uh asking like meditation questions, like so the thoughts that you're having in your head, what are the words that what are the actual words that are using? Because we try to describe them. Oh, I have all these kind of judgments or I have all these negative thoughts, but you know what are the words? What are the actual words? And so it took a little while before you know she kind of grabbed on to some of them. And as she grabbed on to those, it came to be more of that she always seems to feel like she's sabotaging herself. And um, and she started to get emotional. So I asked her, like, where in her body was she feeling the physical sensations of the emotion, which you know just was the weirdest question that she'd ever heard. What do you what do you mean? What do you mean? Where in my body? Uh all over. I'm I'm I feel sad all over. No, so I but and at that point the damn broke open, the tears started coming down, and it came out with I just don't feel like I deserve to be happy. Um, so yeah. So still, where do you feel? Where are you feeling that? Well, you know, she got started getting a little angry, and we kind of rode through the anger, and finally she identified a spot that was really weird, but it was like three inches below her left collarbone. I I it wasn't, she said, not my heart, it's not my heart. Is it is it so okay, okay, fine. But by the time that we started really examining where the physical sensations were and where the words were, now it started becoming an academic exercise of like what was really happening to me. And of course, when you're looking at where is the physical sensation in my body, you gotta be here now. You can't be catastrophizing about what I'm gonna do in the future or regretting all of the times that I've sabotaged myself in the past. So all that gotta go away because I'm looking for where do I feel it? Um that's so through that questioning, she finally kind of got it that oh, that's what you mean by being in the present moment. Like we're here and we're looking at what's happening right now instead of all the other stuff. And then um, I was able to do a little teaching and you know, just told her that you know, emotions are generally just a combination of a physical sensation and a thought. Because, you know, Ryan, if I were to say to you, I love you, but I didn't have a sense of yearning, it would be an academic statement. And if I had the sense of yearning, but there was no thought associated with it, I don't know, I might think I had indigestion or something, right? But when those two things combine, that's when you have an emotion. And if you can deconstruct them, then you can manage and become skillful about managing the emotion. Sometimes you want the emotion, you know, sometimes you know, sometimes you you need to be angry, right, when you're dealing with utility companies, you know. You know, you just what do you mean I got this bill? You know, um anyway, um she uh she got it, and inside of that 45 minutes, um she had an understanding of something which she hadn't didn't have before. And the only thing I can't tell you, you know, definitely cause and effect, but within the next two weeks, she was logging every single day. And when I got her uh review at the end of the class, I always ask them to do a reflection, she said um that I'm gonna carry this into the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Um, and so, you know, um, so I see those kinds of not maybe not to that great extent, um, but I see these little discoveries that people are making, you know, just when they take a little time to look at their thinking.

Ryann 29:44

Yeah. That's a beautiful story with a great ending. Like that's really inspiring. And I think it's a really good illustration for those of us who might be new to this idea of why I would want to meditate, or what would for what perceived benefit would that give me? Because, you know, this girl came in, she was struggling, she didn't know, and she got to the root of these things in a pretty short amount of time. And I think that's really a helpful illustration. Too, like, we all have thoughts, we know they're there. Meditation does not have to be something that is like looks a certain way. We don't have to be chanting or like doing these movements. We don't even have to close our eyes. You know, we can meditate while speaking to you. We can meditate and notice what's going on. So this is like a great jumping off point for everybody listening. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

No, and and I think it should also be said that uh medit meditation is not like a monolith, it's not like there's just you know, just one thing. I mean, there's walking meditation, um, there's the idea of there's Tang Len, which is uh a healing meditation. And then once you get past, you know, what once you develop the basic skills of kind of like being able at will, intentionally, to step out of your thoughts and just watch your thoughts. When once you've developed that that basic little skill, then what we can start doing is we can start cultivating particular thoughts that we want to build up neural pathways so that we can start to, we can actually restructure the physical brain with our thoughts. Um I'll tell you uh a little uh thing that I learned from uh a neuroscientist. He said that they had done an experiment in England where the the uh taxicab drivers had to study the map and they had to learn every single alleyway in all of London and pass a test. So uh the hippocampus or the hippocampi, if you want to be technical, it's two of them. Um I didn't realize that.

Ryann 32:08

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah, one on each hemisphere.

Ryann 32:11

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Um, and um so they that that has to do with your spatial recognition, your sense of direction and the like. So they took uh I don't know, MRIs or CMT, whatever those things are that they take pictures of the brain, and they measured their uh their that little organ. And after the study, they did it again and they found out that it had grown longer, wider, taller, and thicker.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

So using their thinking, they actually changed the structure of their brain to make them to give them more capacity to do what they chose they wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

And so the same thing is true of happiness, joy, awe. You can cultivate loving kindness, you can cultivate compassion, and these things can be learned and you can actually change, you know, the structure. Most of the time it happens in the left prefrontal cortex if you want to be technical about it, but um, but um, you can actually build up these neural pathways. Um and and like you say, for those of people that are just uh getting into this, so you say, so what? Well, here's the difference. Um if you have a very if you have a very thin neural pathway, it's kind of like a filament in a in a in a in a light bulb. Because it's thin and you're trying to push this electricity through it, there's resistance. And you know, in a light bulb, it gets hot and it gives you light and heat. Okay. What that feels like to a human being is oh, I'm not good at math. It feels like, oh, I don't like that, or that's hard for me to think about, or I can't wrap my head around that. It's just hard. It feels like it's hard to think because you're not getting the flow of electricity that easily through the brain. But every time you repeat the thought and you practice, you make that neural pathway thicker, and a thick neural pathway feels like, oh yeah, let's do a crossword puzzle. I'm good at that. I like that. So wouldn't it be for all of those procrastinators out there in the world, wouldn't it be nice if you could change your brain so that instead of saying, oh, I don't like doing that, I gotta put it off till tomorrow, you kind of said, Oh, I like doing that.

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

And if I given the choice of having to do a bunch of stuff I don't like doing, or living life doing stuff I like doing, I'll choose the latter.

Ryann 35:09

Yeah. You know, as you were talking, I think about like the seasons in my life that have been struggles, right? I'm coming out of a season that was really hard. We had financial issues. My husband lost his job. We moved, we had another kid, we like all these things, all the waves kept coming. And I knew when I was in this season, like I knew the habit of happiness, I knew the neuroscience of it, I knew the positive psychology, and yet I still chose to stay in this kind of funk. You know, I wasn't like, you know, majorly depressed or anything. You know, I was getting out of bed, I was functioning, but somewhere in me, I was just like, I was a little more grumpy, I was a little more edgy for like a couple years. And so I think back to that lovely version of me. And I have a lot of compassion for her, but I think as humans, a lot, that's what we do when we struggle. We get comfortable staying there. And we know there's a different way, some of us sometimes, and we know we can make different choices, but we just go, we like dig our heels in the sand and like double down on the misery and the suffering because you know, we got to suffer for life to be worthwhile, right? And um I'm coming out of that season. It's been about a year of like kind of coming up for air. And I just started a meditation practice. I've been off and on for, I would say about seven or eight years. I practice kundalini yoga. And so the meditation that I'm doing is a kundalini meditation because that's just my preference. And when I took the class, I felt home. Something about it just felt like home. So let's break this two parts of it down, the suffering a little bit. Like let's talk about your take on suffering and then your take on when someone's like, hey, I think I want to try that. They sound like they are pretty happy. They sound like they know what they're talking about. Let me give this a try. Which um, you know, which set to use, like where to look, where to find the app or the you know, the type, the tradition that's right for them.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

So uh for the for the answer to that question, um I'll go back into some, you know, uh Buddhist psychology, which really interestingly has been confirmed by neuroscience like to the T. Uh but they the problem, of course, is that we're trying to attack our suffering by trying to get stop it. We're trying to not suffer. And brain science tells us that that's really hard to do. You can't do that. Because the more you try what you resist persists. Um and the you know, the old sages knew this a long time ago. And what the Buddha came up with is he says there's basically three kinds of suffering. Um, if you get right down to the roots of it all, there's there's three kinds of suffering. There's wanting, you know, I want stuff, and and and usually it's I want stuff that I can't have, or I have something and I'm scared of losing it because I don't, I I want it, so I'm scared of losing it. Uh, and and it doesn't take into consideration the reality of the fact that everything is ephemeral, everything changes and passes. So I I there's you can't hold on to things forever. So that's just the reality of life. And so you're living in kind of an unreal life. So there's wanting, there's not wanting, and then there's ignorance. Um, and uh so these are the three things that cause our suffering. Um, and like you say, we become addicted to our suffering, we don't want to give it up. And because generally what we find out is when we suffer enough, we find that it serves a particular purpose in our life. And generally, uh, you know, I think I don't know who said it, but you're not gonna change until the pain of not changing is more than the pain of changing. Um, but what the what the Buddha said, and and he said this is that, well, you really you really can't not want, stop wanting. You just will. But what you can do is you can cultivate the antidote. And so he said there are three poisonous roots, wanting, which at its extreme is greed, not wanting, which at its extreme is hatred, and ignorance, which is just not knowing. So I see it, I want it, I want more, I see it, I don't want to get it away from me, or I see it, I don't understand it, I want to destroy it or go to sleep. Yeah, and these are the three roots, and then he said there are three sweet fruits, yeah, and these three sweet fruits are the antidotes. So if you find that you are wanting a lot, and you know, jealousy comes in that, he says so so the antidote is loving kindness and generosity. Now you can't stop wanting, but what you can do is you can cultivate generosity. And if you cultivate the generosity, it will balance out the wanting. So the antidote to hating is compassion. The antidote to ignorance is wisdom. So if we can find ways to cultivate those things, we will find that we start to not notice it's not like it goes away, but it does. It's just we stop no, it's we stop noticing that it's around. All of a sudden you go, oh, that's not important to me anymore for some reason. And so when you that's where the meditation goes to the next step. So when we have the basic skills, then we can do the loving-kindness meditation, where it is a practice of learning how to open your heart, even to people that are difficult for you, learning to open your heart for you know that that guy who wouldn't give you the refund that you were asking for at Walmart, you know, or whatever. Uh, and then uh developing compassion. And they discovered that there were ways of doing repetitive tasks that build up neural pathways in the brain that give you those compassion muscles, like um, like Tang Len meditation. Uh, is uh I think of something I'm suffering about, or something that you're suffering about, or something the world is suffering about. You know, I'm thinking about you know, those poor kids in uh Mungawi, Africa, who don't have desks to sit on in school, you know, and they have to sit on the ground and learn their lessons on the ground. So I'm thinking about so what you do is you imagine their suffering as a black oily cloud of vapor, and you imagine breathing it in and then holding it for a moment and allowing your heart center and your lungs to metaphorically purify all of that, and then you breathe out cure, you breathe out um um what am I thinking? Not not cure, um healing, you breathe out healing. So you sit for 10 minutes and you're breathing in the suffering and you're purifying and you're breathing out healing. The crazy part about it is that you're building up neural pathways in your brain that are virtually the same as you would be if you were helping a friend out of their suffering. If you were doing it in actual real life, you are still building up the same brain changes.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

And so when we when we create that life where we have now intentionally built up our compassion, we find that we don't hate as much. We just don't dislike stuff as much. And it just, it's just, you know, here's the root, uh, the poisonous root, and here's the sweet fruit. And so you you you just you have to practice it now. The answer to the other question about like, you know, the fits and starts, me too, it was years of fits and starts and and the like. And then finally something felt like it was home and it took off. And so sometimes, you know, you just have to be you know patient until it clicks and don't, you know, don't beat yourself up because it's just the way things are.

Ryann 44:55

That's right. So experimenting a little bit, just see what feels good, see what feels like home. What I heard you say, I loved those um explanations of suffering and the antidotes. I love that. I'm like taking notes furiously. Um and what I heard you say in there is that perhaps, correct me if I'm wrong or off a little bit, is that the goal, if we could use that word, is neutrality or equanimity, perhaps. Would you agree with that? Balance. Balance. And as we start to wrap up, Bob, I would love to know before I ask you the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the interview. I would really love to know what you wish people would ask you more about. Your students, your interviews that you do. What do you wish people would ask you about that they sometimes miss?

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Wow. Um I don't think it's I think that people ask me the questions they should be asking me. I guess what I really wish is that they asked it with more authenticity. Like, you know, people say, Well, I tell. Really great. You know, I'd like to get started, but you know, it's just a passing thing that they're saying to be nice. What I would like is that, you know, that people would be either say, yeah, it sounds great, but you know, that's not for me. I'd rather jog. And that's great, you know, that's wonderful. Um, but if they are really interested in it, you know, I I'm there for I'm there. I'm I'm willing to go, you know, 10 times around the block with them if they want to. So if they say that they're really interested, um, you know, I I would like that to be just very authentic.

Ryann 46:44

Yeah. That's a really cool answer. Not what I was expecting. Um, something that's really relevant in my life, though, as I've um done the various evolutions and stages of this show, um, one of my mantras before I show up and hit record is tell the truth and lead with love. So if I'm unclear about something, saying I'm unclear about something. If I don't agree with something, saying I don't agree with something and showing up um really uh like what's in my mind and my heart combined, you know? That's a cool answer.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Which brings us full circle back to the first question that you asked me about how did I deal with my mob clients, right?

Ryann 47:25

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Oh, I love it. So what is actually no, before I ask that, how can we find you, follow you, get your books, and learn more about the amazing work you're doing in the world, Bob?

SPEAKER_02 47:40

So, all those questions that you know you say, what would I like people to ask me? They because they do ask it a lot. I put together a couple of ebooks that are free, downloadable. And one of them is like, is meditation for me? What is it? What is it not? How do you get started? And then what are some resources? Um so that's all freely downloadable. There's also, you know, you can find out more about me and the classes I teach and all that stuff. Um, and um uh at a wiseandhappylife.com.

Ryann 48:15

Perfect. We'll link everything up down below. So just go down below and click to get um the ebooks and learn more about Bob on his website. I would like to go back to college to take your course, honestly. I think it sounds amazing, and your students are very, very lucky uh to have you guiding them. So thanks a lot. Yeah. What's bringing you joy today, Bob?

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Being with you. I I and I mean that authentically. Um, this um I've been on a bunch of podcasts, and I have this is right up there at the top. I really, really enjoyed spending this time with you.

Ryann 48:59

Me too. And I have to say, I'm getting emotional as you say that because um it brings me so much joy and um just to serve in this way and to spend time with another human being who has lived a life and lives their life and um shows up to teach and serve. It's one of my great honors. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Thank you for you have a terrific smile.

Ryann 49:27

Thank you so much. Thank you. And then the next question I have for you is what, if anything, are you reading right now? What's on your bookshelf?

SPEAKER_02 49:35

You know, I I grew up as an as an uh a non-theist Buddhist Taoist, and I married a woman who is a recovering Southern Baptist Bible literalist, right?

SPEAKER_04 49:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

She she is an absolute saint, uh, and she has a heart of gold. Um and um so we found we found this church that is broad enough to be able to handle both of us. And um, and so uh I'm helping them create a brochure. Um uh to talk about, you know, that's a whole nother subject to get off into, but you know, uh a lot of religion has been co-opted by a lot of different forces, and uh this is a very, very progressive church, an open and affirming church, and uh an environmental justice church and the like, and it's doing a lot of good stuff in the world, and so uh I I'm spending some time yeah getting some materials together for them and so you're in research mode, yeah. I'm in research mode, yeah.

Ryann 50:46

Okay, we well, we might have to have you back on the podcast to talk about that and the uh religion and all that, because that's I find it fascinating too. So and then the last question I have for you is who or what has taught you the most?

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Oh, master watching me.

Ryann 51:04

He was your teacher.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

That was another, yeah. When I uh when I was uh with my mob clients, um uh my life was my personal life was gone to pot. I mean I mean that more literally than figuratively.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Right. Uh and um I was seeing a therapist, and the therapist turned out to be uh a student and uh uh an editor of this 72nd generation Taoist priest from the Shaaldin Temple. And I met this guy and he blew me away. I studied under Master Knee for eight years, and uh yeah, just changed my life.

Ryann 51:46

So is he like an author or no? He's just like a Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's he does. He's got books.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Okay, he's got all kinds of books out there, yeah.

Ryann 51:55

Okay, cool. So if someone's interested, they can go Google. He's passed. Okay, got it. Thank you so much. This conversation was profound, and I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Well, likewise, back at you.

Ryann 52:09

Hi again, friend. If you're listening to this, you made it to the end of a raising wild hearts episode. Yay! Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so you can hear more amazing conversations just like this one. And here's the deal: if you've made it this far, go ahead and hop down on your podcast app and rate and review the show. Your words and five stars truly mean the world to me. Thank you for your support of the show. Thank you for showing up and listening week after week. I will be dropping new episodes every Monday, so tune in then, and I will talk to you soon.