Redefining the Postpartum Experience with Marissa Zwetow

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Roday Marissa Zwetow shares her insights on the complexities of motherhood, discussing the challenges of loving your children while feeling overwhelmed by the responsibilities of parenting. She emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the difficulties of motherhood, the societal pressures to enjoy every moment, and the need for open conversations about feelings of regret and guilt. Marissa advocates for a broader understanding of postpartum experiences, encouraging mothers to seek support and prioritize their well-being. The conversation highlights the significance of community, self-care, and the journey of finding joy amidst the chaos of parenting.

Keywords
motherhood, postpartum happiness, therapy, parenting challenges, mental health, support systems, mom guilt, personal development, community, self-care, emotional well-being

Chapters
00:00 The Reality of Motherhood: A Job Like No Other
09:56 Navigating Regret and Guilt in Motherhood
20:04 The Importance of Support and Community
30:03 Redefining Postpartum: Beyond the Diagnosis
39:56 Finding Joy and Purpose in the Chaos

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_04 0:00

The current narrative around postpartum depression is that it is a mental illness and that the illness is responsible for perhaps the regret, perhaps the lack of bond, the depression, the sadness. And I'm almost I'm wanting to say, what if it happened in reverse? And what I mean by that is, okay, I didn't have a bond. She had colic, which was incredibly challenging. I started to regret my decision. What if that causes depression?

Ryann 0:30

Welcome, Revolutionary Mama, to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. I'm Ryan Watkin, educator, mom of three, rebel at heart, and passionate soul on a mission to empower and inspire you. Here we'll explore psychology, spirituality, parenthood, and the intersection where they all come together. We'll discover how challenges can be fertile soil for growth, and that even in the messy middle of motherhood, we can find magic in the mundane. Join me on my own personal journey as I talk to experts and share resources on education, creativity, self-care, family culture, and more. I believe we can change the world by starting at home in our own minds and hearts, and that when we do, we'll be passing down the most important legacy there is healing. And so it is.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Ryann 3:56

Yeah, I'm so excited that you're here. And I am absolutely obsessed with the name of your book, which is Postpartum Happiness: What to do when you love the kids but hate the job. And I always joke, like frequently in the privacy of my own home thus far until now, that I'm like, take me back to my cubicle to I'll work 60 hours a week, I'll work nights, I'll work weekends. Like, I'm like anything would be easier than this job of parenting these three children that I've brought onto this earth. So yes, I love that you framed it as a job because it really is the work and the tasks, like and the checklisty type stuff of motherhood and parenting really is a job. It's just, you know, a group of tasks that need to be done day in and day out. And then of course, there's like the nurturing and the emotional intelligence that comes along with it. And that's a whole nother thing. But it's I heard somebody say the other day, like parenthood is the number one personal development program out there. And I'm like spot on. So let's talk a little bit about loving your kids but hating the job.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Gosh, yeah. Really being honest. Um, and when it was newborn stage and postpartum. I I honestly couldn't really even say I loved her. I did not have that bond. I just didn't know how to sell a book saying, you know, what to do when you don't like your kids and don't like the job either. Maybe I'll be more brave. I'm thinking actually kind of of rebranding it a little bit. I think it still gets the message across. And at the end of the day, you know, most of the moms I work with, it it isn't about you know, loving or not loving their child or baby or whoever. It's it really is like you said, it's the job and the role itself. And I really just wanted to shed light that it is one, it is a hard job. And I think that most of the society's messaging is that it's you know the hardest job you'll ever love or enjoy it. Now it goes by fast. So all this messaging is is that you're supposed to love it or value, value is not the right word, but it's of the utmost importance. And then when I didn't have that experience, I'm left with what's wrong with me. And I know now that's just not the case. I'm allowed, I'm allowed to say, I don't like the role or the job and and figure out how to get some help the where it's not all falling on me.

Ryann 6:34

Yeah, totally. It's so multifaceted. I remember my oldest daughter was about four months old, maybe, and we went to go see some family friends, and the mom of like the the grandmother, so like the mom who was, you know, my mom's age was like, Don't you just love being a mom? And I'm like, Yes. Like I said yes, like I heard myself saying, Oh yeah. And in my mind, I was like, fuck, what are you talking about? And I think like there's this like um expectation that we should just transition to this motherly role with ease, and it's so lovely. And I almost was like, Are you full of shit? Like, are can't you be real about like the struggles? And that was only four months in. I mean, now I've got a lot more to say about it, and there's even more challenges as they grow and individuate and become their own people and start saying no and all that stuff. And so I thought, like, wow, this I mean, that moment will stick forever with me because I just felt like there was not this very authentic and real conversation happening around motherhood, especially when I was pregnant or really as a new mom, like even in like many, most of the mommy in me circles, it was all like external related. What kind of stroller? Are you nursing? Are you bottle feeding? Are you this? And it was all like these external things. And I'm like, I just need to talk for a minute about how I'm feeling in here. Like, forget all this stuff out there. Um, so what do you see in the work that you do and your own work as a mother? Of like how much we're valuing the external versus the internal. And is that part of the problem to begin with?

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Yeah, yeah. What one of the things I know to be true is that there is a wide variety of how a mom or parent does regard the role. And I think like in the beginning, I too was like, you are full of shit. Like there's, you know, this mom down the street that has five kids, there's just no way she's happy. But I I really do know now that quite possibly she is. There's just a again, a very wide spectrum of the mom that has baby fever and loves it. Maybe even homeschools her kids and has abundance of kids, and then you know, perhaps a woman that's not even on the spectrum that says, you know what, I don't want kids, or someone like me that had one and realized, oh my gosh, I thought I would love being a mom, and I realize it is not my thing, and now I am one, so I've got to navigate that and figure it out. But I think that's what we need to start talking about is the there's a wide variety and you know, yeah, the mom that's happy hopefully isn't full of shit. But I can love myself too. I can I can, you know, I can say, okay, you know, when we think about like careers, you know, if I if I had said, you know what, I I uh got my CPA and I'm accounting, I'd realize I I don't like it. That's not that's a bummer, like you put on you put in all that effort. But no one's gonna shame you for that. But when it happens in the role of mom, it's well, and I I could share too part of my message right now is that I think we need to look at the diagnosis of postpartum depression even a little differently because it's a we're pathologizing something when I'm saying I don't think I love this. So I I I can talk more on that too. But sorry, you were you were saying, yeah, the externalization of the like all the gadgets and all the things. Um like almost like it's keeping it at surface level. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Ryann 10:29

Kind of like there's this emphasis to have motherhood just be another like consumerism journey, and you know what I mean, like the nursery decorations and like just all the emphasis that we put on like the way that our family looks or the way that motherhood looks or the gizmos and the gadgets and the rockers and the strollers, and you know, so it just feels like um it just feels like there's no depth to me. I was like, where's the depth? I wanted to get to like the heart of the matter, you know.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I I get what you're saying. You know, funny thing is I think if I really was happy, and again, I hear this. Like I was meant to be a mother. I think I would. I think I would want to sit in a circle and talk about my nursery and the latest thing. But I mean, that just wasn't my experience. I'm with you. I'm with you. Like I wanted, I wanted lead, sweat, and tears in those circles. And yeah, I didn't I didn't see it either. I was in a I was in a circle once and honestly, it made it worse. It made it worse because I just I thought, oh my gosh, am I the only one that that that wants to talk in depth like this?

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

So I don't know. Again, it's it's um it's an interesting conundrum when there is such a wide variety. I think it can still work. But I'm I'm on a mission to give voice more to the the moms that are on the other end of the spectrum that are like, what just happened? I thought I I feel like a bomb went off in my house. I really do. And that's you know I'll say it, you know, I I I say that now with confidence, but in the beginning, I don't know that I would have the courage to say that.

Ryann 12:12

How old are your kids now?

SPEAKER_04 12:13

So I have I have one by choice, and that's part of that's part of my journey too, is is coming to terms with how challenging that role was for me. Um and realizing one was enough. And I could have had another and had a very different experience. But you know, even on the easiest days, you know, she's long past colic and all that stuff, it's still challenging. So she's 11. She's 11, and we're we're in a different phase for sure. But I'm I'm still still so passionate and and remembering what those early days were like, probably because I talk about it over and over again.

Ryann 12:50

Yeah. Well, thank you for staying passionate about it because I think sometimes when we outgrow like certain phases, we just I know me, I'm like multi-passionate, like the next shiny thing comes along, and I'm like, but I think that it's important for people who do have older kids who have kind of made it to the next milestone or the next like season of that role to really like say, come on, guys, like you're back there and I get it, you're new and like you're new here. Like, come on, you can do this, and it's okay to feel this way. And I think that's part of like normalizing the healthy and honest and real conversations that need to be had about motherhood and all that it entails.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Yeah, absolutely. I agree.

Ryann 13:37

I love how you said when someone studies to be a CPA and they decide like I don't like accounting, I want to talk a little bit about regret because you know, I I want to talk about feeling all the things too, but let's just like wrap it all up together. I am going through a hard season right now, and I'm finding myself having to forge through and just I'm just having a hard go at it right now in motherhood. And it's been since the beginning, very up and down, and there's been the highs and the lows and all of it. And so I know that it's a season, and also I find myself going like, why did I do this? Like, what, you know, what's this all for? Like it's almost like this existential, like, I need to find the meaning in it. And, you know, hence why I do this podcast, like, still, because it's um, it helps talk out and really like get out these healing conversations that need to be had and witnessed and shared. So really that comes down to like regret, which is this like you put it as this like taboo feeling of like, we can regret a master's degree if we're an accountant and we don't like our career, but to regret becoming a mother, my gosh, how could you? You're so blessed. Your kids are healthy. Look at all you have. You should be this and that, and you should be grateful. And so then it induces this kind of, I guess, guilt or shame, which is this really sticky place to be in. So let's break all of that down and then we'll talk a little bit about feeling both ways because while the last thing I'll say, and then I'd love to hear your take on it. While I am in a hard season and I can say that, and there is some, you know, really hard things that I'm working through, there's also this tremendous joy. So I have the capacity for both, right? It's not just like my God, I'm drowning. It's that. And like there is still joy to be found. And so I'm finding comfort in knowing like being able to feel one is also like I'm able to feel the other. It's not just isolated.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

So yeah, yeah, yeah. And I I imagine a feeling of regret, feeling probably guilt.

Ryann 16:01

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

Yeah, yeah. And and you know, your your kids are older, um, you know, in the postpartum period, and this is where I kind of fight back a little bit. If a mother says that, chances are really, really good she's gonna get diagnosed, she's gonna get pathologized. Whereas you're past that, and I'm not saying there isn't still an abundance of negative feelings associated with it. But yeah, I think I think as we both said, it's it's just a it is a hard job, and I'm I'm allowed to be all the feelings, all of them. Um, and and I also don't want to get stuck there, and I think that's important. You know, once once I feel that validation and acceptance, I absolutely want to make a dissolution. What is going on in the season or whatever it may be that I'm overwhelmed and what's maybe missing for me? Often it's time for ourselves or trying to control something maybe that that I can't control. But yeah, I I I felt I felt regret. I didn't I didn't even have the joy attached to it at that point, which I like I'm saying, if I'm being honest, I didn't even have that that love, which was a big part of it. And and it was so confusing. It was so confusing that to know what is going on. I know now that it was a very it was a normal reaction, but that's I just don't think it's talked about like that. I think I think we want to go to you must have postpartum depression. And I'm not I'm not saying it isn't real. It is a real diagnosis, but we need to look at it from different angles. And the angle that I'm trying to shed light on is the current narrative around postpartum depression is that it is a mental illness and that the illness is responsible for perhaps the regret, perhaps the lack of bond, the depression, the sadness. And I'm almost wanting to say, well, what if it happened in reverse? And what I mean by that is okay, I didn't have a bond. She had colic, which was incredibly challenging. I started to regret my decision. What if that causes depression? But that's taboo, right? Because we're basically now we're gonna now we're saying, Oh, okay, motherhood is hard and unenjoyable and it causes depression. I'm like, yep, sometimes it does. Right. Yeah. So that's that's my mission to start talking about it in that way. And sometimes I think I don't even think a mom necessarily, I think if we can get ahead of it, I can tell that she's not going to get postparted depression. I think it's preventable in that way, where where again the current narrative is it's it's the hormones and a chemical imbalance. And and I'm not negating all that. I again I just I want to broaden, I want to broaden the narrative and and open up that conversation. And I'm getting right at the the taboo places where we just don't really I don't think I don't think we're that loud and vocal as we should be about it.

Ryann 19:07

Agreed. And if you think about it, your entire life just changes in an instant. You you bring this child home or you or you give birth at home, whatever it is, and all of a sudden it's like I remember my gosh so distinctly going like now what? Like now what do we do? Because you don't just like run out, you don't just go shopping or go for an errand or just go for like a run. It's it changes your entire life's scape. And so it's this like massive transition. And so I think like you, I feel that it's very over pathologized. I don't even say that I had postpiran depression. I don't think that's what it was. I think I was just kind of disgruntled. I had trauma that I had been pushing down for decades, and just one day the stars aligned and I wasn't taking care of myself and I hadn't slept, and I was just not necessarily in my right mind. And I just had this massive panic attack and was like, oh my god, yeah. And it was scary. I had never had it. And so it, you know, and looking back, it was very much like, okay, well, you know, I called my midwife and I talked to my husband and I talked to some family, and it was like, okay, you need to get on these meds and you need to do this and take care of yourself and did it. And it was like, wait a minute, what? And in really, in reality, there had to be some sort of a lifestyle shift from my perspective. I just needed a few simple shifts, a few habit changes, some talk therapy, like coach, uh, you know, I just needed some things to really ultimately support this massive transition that I was going through that is so like normal or you know, frequent in our society that we don't really second guess it. We just go, Oh, she's having a baby, it's so sweet. You know, it's like this narrative around it that's not accurate.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Absolutely. Yeah. And I I think too that you know, having a panic attack is is real. There's no doubt, I I did absolutely fall into a deep depression. But the how I got there matters. And if someone had really kind of looked at everything I had been through, maybe similar to you, like, oh my gosh, given everything that you just described or that you're going through, of course you had a panic attack, or of course, you know, you're depressed. And and I still think I wish I had gotten on medication, and that might that that might sound contradictory, but you know, the way I I kind of clarify that is external things can still lead to depression. If my husband died, that would be devastating to me, and I might want to consider getting on medication. medication sooner than later to help with that. But again, no one's no one's gonna pathologize that. They're gonna they're gonna say exactly what I kind of just said postpartum. Like, of course, of course you're struggling and are depressed. So I yeah it sounds it sounds just crushing what you went through. And it sounds like some of that validation went missing for you too. Like oh my gosh. Yeah this just it makes sense that you're struggling. And like you said it sounds like some solutions were missing like oh let's get you let's change this around let's get you more sleep or let's you know do the things I too I needed I needed huge lifestyle changes. But then again I fell into that narrative that this is what moms do. What's wrong with me that I'm not handling it so well. And it doesn't it doesn't matter if if another mom on Facebook or across the street is doing it on her own. Doesn't matter I'm not doing so well. So but if we I always say to my my the moms I work with if you're if you're gonna compare compare up and what I mean by that is there is a mom out there that has a nanny. There is a mom out there that has full-time help you know so if you really are going to compare you you can find another mom that has it I don't want to say better but has the help that you are craving.

Ryann 24:20

Right. And I love that you mentioned help because I had this um idea this crazy idea that it was all on me and that I was the one in charge of all the things all the feeling states all the big emotions all the feedings all the I felt like this was a load that I had to carry. And I'm sure that's some sort of intergenerational thing that has been passed down that might be another episode but I think we really struggle to ask for help and to not even to ask for it but to actually like receive to actually go like I am worthy of receiving this help.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

Absolutely yeah absolutely it's a big deal yeah go ahead no you please okay so I I know in my confusion and like I was older too I was 36 and felt like I was you know high achiever and so just I was just confused and questioning but I know I did start researching um kind of like other cultures and traditions and most recently uh I had seen that there's a a Chinese tradition called confinement. Have you have you heard of this?

Ryann 25:38

No.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

I mean there's there's other cultures too the idea of the village but it's it's basically a period of time anywhere from 30 days to 100 days where the mom is just absolutely taken care of hampered meals made for and the purpose is just for her to rest and recover. And I'm like oh my gosh that makes so much sense what you know what I would do if I could go back in time to set that up. Like the fourth trimester would that be a more common known way to describe that I mean I'm aware of the fourth trimester as the baby being in the fourth trimester and being so needy I don't I've not heard it as like that help is gonna be there is that is that is that kind of like implied maybe that you need the help?

Ryann 26:26

Yes it's like implied that so when I had my third child finally I wised up and yeah just life circumstances were different and my husband took I forget how long I want to say it was two weeks. It was a pretty extended period of time for our culture now. And I just like lavished in rest by then and so that was in my idea that's what it was it was the baby was very close to you and really just didn't leave you and all you guys did was nurse and lounge and eat and drink water like and you just like kind of like are the baby is like with you but you're just like beyond taken care of similar yes totally and even in those circumstances even then I mean he's about to be three as this heirs he'll already be three which is wild to think about and in many ways I still I just told someone this the other day I still feel postpartum yes like my hormones and the things and now I'm 41 and so there's this like paramount menopausal thing to consider. It's like whoa wait like all of a sudden you know there's yeah all these different factors. And so yes three years later he's not a baby by any stretch of the imagination but I still feel not quite myself. So that brings me to ask you like do you have a strong opinion on how long technically the postpartum period actually is or is it forever? Is it like pre-baby and then you have a baby and you're always postpartum like what do you think on that?

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yeah I just I don't I don't think it matters yeah you know what's interesting is there was there's a professional who psychologist that specialized in grief and I don't know for how many years maybe decades he had done this and he lost his adult son and so just it sounded awful devastating he is now grieving he is going through the grief and he's still a psychologist and still specializes in grief but what he said is that a couple of things he said he he wishes he could go back and and maybe talk to all the clients he had and almost like apologize because now he maybe catch some of the things he said realizing you know who knows I'm paraphrasing but just like oh I shouldn't have said that or or I didn't get it. I didn't get it until now. The other thing is there is a diagnosis called prolonged grief and he is pretty much saying that is absolute bullshit similar to postpartum like you know to put this time frame on it so it fits that little you know diagnoses box he he thinks that's ridiculous. Prolonged grief that implies that there's a normal way to grief. And I would say the same for postpartum that there's that implication that there's this normal time that you're gonna feel uneasy or not like yourself. So how what would be my answer to that? I guess I guess it's self-report. If if you are still not quite feeling like yourself then that's the answer you know yeah right and I'm gonna be the last one to to pathologize somebody for that I'm on I'm on team whatever whatever you self-report is what's happening and that's what's relevant.

Ryann 29:52

Yes thank you for that beautiful reflection and I think we need more of that like it's this very like I believe you kind of a statement you know like I believe you're not feeling like yourself totally understandable because in so many ways our society kind of like gaslights us so to speak you know of like the baby blues get back enough get your body back your this and you know and I wonder too if there's like something that you've noticed with the women that you work with whether going back to work plays a part versus staying home I never thought I would be a stay at home mom but I chose 10 years ago to do that. And that has been just whoa because there was not then another outlet. I mean I I've since a decade later created outlets and created different structures in my life to to do different things and create this podcast etc and like I've mostly stayed home with my three year old. And so of course I'm still feeling most part of him he's he's only three he's still little you know and so however I've had more support with him than any other but so yeah I just wonder if those decisions play a part in you know feeling like yourself more maybe having a better sense of purpose a better sense of fulfillment like you know regardless of what role you choose yeah yeah I think I think there's it's a bit of a catch 22 I think um I mean I I remember kind of being naive about the whole thing like yeah I'm I'm gonna be a working mom and you know millions of moms are working moms.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

I just didn't I didn't see an issue with it and then all of a sudden it you know I have this baby and I have this return to work date and it just was like how's this gonna work? You know and then the other thing I think I am I am uh I don't say a feminist but but um I don't say I'm a feminist but I mean I value you know fairness and all that and I think feminism screwed us. Yes I really think yes yes I agree I don't I can't do it all I can't do it all I love that I have choice that's fantastic and I can't do it all. So I don't I don't know that I feel like sometimes I'm not answering your question. Um as far as like role and purpose. I just think it's important one that maybe we we do better preparing a new mom just the realities of it if that's possible. I I think I think that moms are kind of stuck that they'd love to work part-time and there just there just is not very very much part-time work and I I think that's a problem again because we're normalizing the full-time working mom so that's kind of big picture what I think needs to change um and I think I think I'm usually I'm always for the mom I always say I'm not not a parenting coach I don't really have parenting advice I am for the mom and so I I try and listen to what she wants. What is it that you want? Do you want to be at home do you want to work do you want to work part time there's yeah there's just no right or wrong what's going to give her purpose and meaning around that but I but I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that postpartum that just hit me hard in the face whereas I was so naive it was just like I thought no no big deal you know I'm like oh my gosh.

Ryann 33:32

Right. Did you ultimately end up going back to work and how did that work out?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Oh gosh I I I didn't really I was very uneducated or ignorant about a disability I should have extended that. When I saw my well I didn't even see my OB so I'm at my six week objeo by an appointment I don't actually see my OBD which I think is common I'm I'm seeing a physician assistant. Physician assistant I've never met before that's so common. I you know I get handed the clipboard with a survey I think these questions suck. They suck they're terrible what is it like are you are you just as happy always sometimes never like oh my God I lied on every question. I I had no interest in talking to a stranger about what I was going through postpartum. So sorry what was the question? Yeah I decided to go to work. Oh yeah yeah yeah um well okay so yes like I yes I didn't feel comfortable talking to a stranger but if I could have at least worked the system and I would have gone back and I would have I would have for that reason opened up and and said I need to get disability extended which I know doesn't apply to everyone in every state. I mean I'm in California. So yes yes I did go back to work it was I was tired it was kind of ridiculous. Um and I just think I didn't see I felt so trapped I felt so trapped and I wish I wish I had been more prepared.

Ryann 35:06

I would have taken a full year I I I wish every mom had you know I'm trying to think of what to compare it to where we might have a a good chunk of money saved up you know that we're gonna get the the house cleaner we're gonna get the year we're gonna get um a meal delivery service yeah a postpartum doula yeah totally baby a nanny a babysitter yeah so you said a word that I want to double click on and you said trapped so I think so often when we feel trapped or stuck we perceive that we have limited or no choice in the matter and I get that like in so many different contexts around motherhood and just life you know feeling as though we're stuck or trapped so how do you find your clients are able to move out of that kind of powerless position where they perceive they don't have choice and moving into a more empowered position yeah I think there needs to be just a different frame of mind.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

I mean when I look at the dark dark place that I found myself in if I had looked at hiring help as medicine even if I had to put it on a credit card there would be no question and that's what I should have done. I I felt trapped looking at our bank account which I is common I see with my clients. So maybe it doesn't have to be hiring maybe you just get really creative with a friend or neighbor or you know even partners I think I think um that's even just a challenge to try and get their partner to to lean in more to their partner. But I just I just think given my mental health and well being it shouldn't have been it shouldn't have been a question. And and I think if I had really really leaned into my husband more I'm sure he would have moved mountains for me. But I it just yeah I felt trapped I felt yeah you're right limited absolutely felt limited and and I pushed through which is awful I I couldn't have imagined where it would take me so I really I just try and reflect back what I'm hearing. I share my own regrets I I reflect back kind of the what I'm hearing from them you know that I I'm maybe even that I'm genuinely worried for them and and invite if if this were medicine that you needed what would you what would you do differently there's there's always a way we just have to get out of our way to find that way.

Ryann 38:47

Yes yeah it's so interesting sometimes like to that's why I said perceive the lack of choices because we always have a choice stay home go to work it's always a choice and sometimes I have to remind myself I chose to be a stay at home mom. This is what I chose right so not only that you get to wake up and choose what your day looks like feels like right and there are things that we can't control our toddler's meltdowns our newborn's colic our tweens attitude our you know and the list goes on and so I think even for any season of motherhood like it's important to remember we get to choose how we show up and respond to the external circumstances you know absolutely I completely agree.

SPEAKER_04 39:37

Yeah and often my job is just to navigate those choices and weed out those limitations that are self-imposed.

Ryann 39:46

Yeah and it's so helpful too to have like a coach a therapist somebody like you said to reflect those things back. I think we get you know cloudy a little bit and we start to not be able to like see our own blind spots and we just like sometimes it's so obvious like if you're talking to a girlfriend or even just an acquaintance and they say something and I'll be like so obvious like doesn't she see it you know and it's so obvious to somebody else like of like hey did you ever think of you know XYZ and it's like yeah and it's sometimes like you know I can't hear it from my husband if I you know sometimes you have to hear it from somebody else who can just be a mirror and hold that up to you so that you can see um you know the solution I love how you focused on solutions like instead of feeling trapped instead of feeling like I always say like in the trenches like instead of feeling like in the trenches like what are a few solutions and for me lately like even in a challenging season it's like okay what do I have control over? How do I want to feel how do I want my days to look like what lights me up you know continuing to do those things.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

So yeah and what's possible given given what you want yeah yeah yeah like I've I've had um moms that have maybe not quite been newborn but pretty early on they would get a hotel room for the night as part of their like where is tradition or something and um just like oh that sounds that sounds amazing. I mean you know maybe not every mom could do that but maybe they could go with a friend you know if they're if they're exclusively breastfeeding or maybe they wait until the year.

Ryann 41:28

Well you know however it may look but again yeah there absolutely is possibility there is there is choice yeah it's just kind of a brainstorming um process there but yeah absolutely totally I'm all for the hotel room I love that idea I try once a year to take like a little mini staycation and I think last year I did three nights and I started to feel a little lonely through toward the third day and I was like maybe I should turn this into like a retreat and like gather some other women some other mobs and we can like listen to a seminar or whatever because I found myself going like I'm a little bored and I don't want to like have another meal alone and I just feel like I felt like I was like flailing. But yeah I do think that like for me especially I don't know like different personalities introverts extroverts like the way that you get your cup filled like I happen at this point to be an introvert and I think motherhood kind of did that to me like maybe later on when the bandwidth is a little more open I'll be a little more extroverted but at this point I just need a lot of quiet time to really like sort through the thoughts and the feelings and just to really like kind of be with myself. So that the hotel room super valuable I would double down on that for sure if you're able like you know there are also like ways in between your day to still seek moments of quiet even if it's not a hotel room but I like that quiet idea.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Absolutely yeah yeah another you know another kind of solution I I remember that there was a a mom who was she loved working out she's just you know an avid exerciser and she tried really hard with her baby to do to continue and it just wasn't working out and she was just you know just really down about it. And we explored this is kind of this was maybe a blind spot for her like can you hire someone to come um you know every day for that one hour where that time is guaranteed. So yeah just you know it's different for everyone for her it was it was having that one hour I you know the word guarantee too uh I I think that out of control piece is so hard for for myself and for new moms in that they're they're trying you know like some days are good I got so much done and I could exercise and then the next day just goes to shit. And and it's that and then you get to the third and fourth day and it's like how's this gonna go? You know I can't count on it. And I and I think for some moms getting that help is is that guaranteed time where they actually they can they can take a nap they can exercise so that's a piece I think that I went missing for me is I didn't I didn't feel like I had control over me and things that I value.

Ryann 44:26

Yeah. Yeah having that consistency and that structure in our lives especially like depending on your temperament or personality can be really key just so things feel a little normal consistent dependable because I think generally speaking when we know what to expect and I have one child who's very much like this when she knows what to expect she knows the schedule and the rhythm of the day she feels safe she feels calm she feels confident that she knows what's coming and so it's like the little things like that that we can do just to to create some predictability um I love that and I love the work that you're doing in the world. Thank you so much for shining your light before we start to wrap up tell us where we can find you follow you and learn more about the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 45:19

Yeah thank you so my website is postpartumhappiness.com everything really is postpartum happiness so at postpartum happiness for TikTok Facebook Instagram YouTube I think on on X I couldn't get the happiness so I did postpartum happy okay um yeah and I have a lot of tips and whatnot and then and then the book that you mentioned Postpartum happiness uh what to do when you love the kids but hate the job is on Amazon. And I really I it's a very short book very short read hour and a half on audio like seventy eight pages and I just strive to validate new months all the taboo things you're not supposed to feel or say and then I focus on some tips and stories and solutions on like Said how we can come from a place of choice and solution.

Ryann 46:12

Yes. I love that you use the word happiness because I feel like you could have chosen like something with the word depression in it, but you're choosing to like, let's call it happiness because that's what we're going for, right? It's not like battling depression or battling anxiety, seeking for embracing, allowing happiness. And I'm obsessed with happiness because I think we've been sold a lie in our culture of what happiness is. It's just like an emotion and it's a fleeting state. And it's right. And two, it made me think of this book that I read when I first started like diving into research. And my daughter, my oldest daughter was probably one year old, and it's called Happiness Advantage by Sean Accor. And he found, I think he's a researcher at Harvard, I want to say, one of those, but he found that success does not precede happiness, but that happiness actually precedes success. And I thought that was so fascinating because we're striving for success, whether it be career-wise or motherhood, et cetera. We're saying, I'll be happy when I get this thing. I'll be happy when my kids don't melt down. I'll be happy when my kids are older. I'll be happy when, when, when. And really it's happy now, allowing that happiness now. And then the success is a beautiful byproduct of that. So I love that you use the word happiness. Yeah, I think it's so fitting and amazing. So I'm gonna ask you the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the interview. But before we do that, I'm gonna ask you one bonus question because I thought of this as we were chatting. So, what would you tell a woman who just found out she was pregnant today and she's a first-time mom and she's a little nervous and she doesn't know what to expect? What would you say to her, just like in a sentence or two, about you know, her mindset and everything to expect going into this?

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Yeah, I love that question. I think I would say that uh you know, maybe the assumption that she's she's excited and and I might, you know, just say that it can be beautiful and wonderful and the best thing ever. And it's okay if it's not. And I would probably I'd probably elaborate a little bit on that. And what I hope is that I plan to see that if she is feeling in a hopefully not a dark place, but you know, feeling defeated that maybe she'll remember. Yeah. And I and when I say it's okay, I don't mean suffer through it. I I want to remove I just want to remove the shame and the guilt. Um and you know, and then you know, then like I said, solution, solution, solution. But I felt like something was wrong with me, and that's what I'm trying to eliminate.

Ryann 49:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

It's okay to feel this way, and let's figure out what you need.

Ryann 49:13

Right. It doesn't mean anything about who you are, it doesn't mean anything about the type of mom you'll be, it doesn't mean anything, you know, about your inherent worth or value in the world. Yeah, I love that. I love your message. All right, what's bringing you joy today, Marissa?

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Gosh. Uh, you know, it's fall and just looking forward to holidays, looking forward to my daughter being 11 years old and more more independent. Uh just getting my message out there right now really is is bringing me joy.

Ryann 49:48

Yeah, beautiful. What if anything are you reading right now?

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Gosh. I this is terrible as an author, right? I'm not a big reader. What am I reading right now? Oh gosh. I'm gonna have to pass on that.

Ryann 50:05

Pass on it. That's okay. We you can say your own book, Postpartum Happiness. What to do when you love the kids but hate the job. We'll we'll put that one in there instead. That's perfect. All good. And then the last question I have for you is who or what has taught you the most?

SPEAKER_04 50:20

Um, who or what has taught me the most? I mean, sorry if this is cliche, but my daughter, you know, whether it be just her existence and um Yeah. I I love that quote, like make your mess your message. I don't know who said it, but had I not experienced the darkest time of my life, the hardest time in my life, I would not be here today. So passionate about helping other moms. I mean, it just makes me emotional. So yeah, she her, you know, just I I say her existence because the darkest time is her just screaming and wailing. She was a part of my journey and experience with that. And she's taught me to love myself despite feeling like I'm going against the grain or that the tribe is gonna kick me out. And that's just not the case.

Ryann 51:16

Beautiful. Thank you so much again. This was an amazing conversation.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

Thank you.

Ryann 51:22

Hi again, friend. If you're listening to this, you made it to the end of a Racing Wild Arts episode. Yay! Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so you can hear more amazing conversations just like this one. And here's the deal: if you've made it this far, go ahead and hop down on your podcast app and rate and review the show. Your words and five stars truly mean the world to me. Thank you for your support of the show. Thank you for showing up and listening week after week. I will be dropping new episodes every Monday, so tune in then, and I will talk to you soon.