Raising Wild Hearts
An inspirational show focused on growth from challenge and ideas to take the path less traveled. Ryann Watkin interviews experts and shares resources on education, creativity, nature, spirituality, mental health, relationships, self care, and more. Ryann is a passionate speaker, mom, wife, and educator who asks questions that provoke self-awareness, meaning, and purpose. Psychology, spirituality, family— and where they all intersect— is the heartbeat of Raising Wild Hearts.
Raising Wild Hearts
Letting Go of Burnout and Quieting Your Inner Critic with Jennifer Erwin
Today I'm chatting with women's empowerment coach Jennifer Erwin. As a former teacher and current homeschooling mom, she helps unravel the complexities of burnout, overwhelm, quieting our inner critic and more. We weave through the intricacies of motherhood and the pursuit of self-discovery, discussing how to marry the demands of raising children with the yearning for personal growth.
💕Learn More About Jennifer's Work Here 💕
If you feel inspired please consider sharing this episode with a friend, writing a 5⭐️ review or becoming a Raising Wild Hearts Member here!
Am I living my values? Am I returning to myself, checking in? You know, doing my best, whatever that looks like on a particular day, based on where my energy is, where I am in my cycle. You know all these things like can I just be both brilliant in the way that I'm showing up and totally imperfect, and how do I hold those things?
Speaker 2:Welcome, revolutionary Mama, to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. I'm Ryan Watkin, educator, mom of three, rebel at heart and passionate soul on a mission to empower and inspire you.
Speaker 2:Here we'll explore psychology, spirituality, parenthood and the intersection where they all come together. We'll explore psychology, spirituality, parenthood and the intersection where they all come together. We'll discover how challenges can be fertile soil for growth and that even in the messy middle of motherhood, we can find magic in the mundane. Join me on my own personal journey as I talk to experts and share resources on education, creativity, self-care, family culture and more. Education, creativity, self-care, family culture and more. I believe we can change the world by starting at home, in our own minds and hearts, and that when we do, we'll be passing down the most important legacy there is healing, and so it is. Hello, welcome back to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. Wow, has it been a whirlwind day today.
Speaker 2:As I'm recording this intro, I've had three amazing interviews today, one of which I'm sharing with you today. So yay. Today I'm talking to Jennifer Irwin. Jennifer is a women's empowerment coach. Love it. She's dedicated to guiding high achieving moms through burnout to a thriving, confident life. And we talk a little bit about burnout in this episode towards the end, so make sure to hang out for that. I could have talked to Jennifer literally all day. She left a successful teaching career because of burnout and found her new calling in life coaching, and that was about nine years ago, and she's been supporting women in a coaching capacity ever since.
Speaker 2:As a recovering perfectionist and empathetic high achiever Wow, I can relate to that. Jennifer intimately knows the challenges women face with a loud inner critic, often leading to overwhelm and stress. Her mission is to help women conquer burnout and inner stress and become their own best friend to create purposeful, connected lives. What a mission, and Jennifer is certainly living it. She was an absolute joy to speak with. We were so connected and our paths have so many parallels, so it's always fun to speak to someone who has a similar journey, and her wisdom was palpable.
Speaker 2:We talk about so many different things. We talk about our inner critic, we talk about wisdom, we talk a little bit about mom guilt. Of course, we talk about tools to help sit in the messy place and just be with life as it is. This conversation was pure gold and we went to so many different places and if we had another two hours we could have gone so many other places, but it was just a phenomenal conversation. Jennifer's information is in the show notes, so click to book a call with her or to just check out her website. Let's dive into today's conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Hi, jennifer, welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.
Speaker 1:Hi, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so excited that you're here Once again. I meet someone awesome on LinkedIn, so yay for that. We were we were talking a little bit before we recorded about how we're not on social media super much, but that LinkedIn is a pretty good resource and I agree, I resonate with like. I resonate with like ambitious women and mothers for some reason, and I feel like there's some ambition going on in LinkedIn and whether that's like good, bad or indifferent I don't know, but so yay for LinkedIn and thanks for connecting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for connecting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. So the first thing I want to start with I mean, one of the things I talk about a lot on the podcast is like mom guilt, where it comes from, why we have it, what we do with it once it shows up. So I think that's going to be a good place to start is like what's your take on mom guilt? How do we get rid of it? No, I'm just kidding. I know there's getting rid of it. But how do we, how do we deal? How do we like healthily cope with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think mom guilt is, it's just normalizing it, that that is just something that we all experience, and I feel like it's a mixture of things.
Speaker 1:I think it's partly because we care so much, so naming the strength in it, it's because we're passionate and we care about our kids and we want good things for them and we have that drive and love and deep care for them and for the other people in our lives and that we're socialized to believe that that's really all we should want.
Speaker 1:And the truth is is that we're whole humans and motherhood is one beautiful piece of who we are, and motherhood is one beautiful piece of who we are.
Speaker 1:And when we deny these other parts of ourselves right, like whether it's a career or some outside hobby or something like that, if we deny it, we feel kind of empty inside and sometimes when we turn towards it I talk to a lot of moms that have I work with working moms and so they love their career they're like I really don't know that I would be happy as a stay-at-home mom. They want to be in their career, but they feel, I think, partly from cultural pressures and also because it's just hard you can't be everywhere all at once and you're trying to balance those needs and both feel important to who you are as your identity. Of course, stuff is going to come up because you're holding a lot on your plate and so just wanting to name that, it's normal that there's those outside pressures and that it's because we're multifaceted beings who have a lot of passions and that's a good thing. So the guilt isn't necessarily a sign that you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beautiful, take on it. I was having a conversation at my son's mommy and me class this week and one of the moms said you know, I think that there's a healthy amount of shame. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting and what she was getting at, because hearing that first I went like ooh. But hearing as she unpacked it, what she meant was how do we teach our kids, or model to our kids, what's right and wrong if we never feel funny about something? So guilt in a way, shame in a way, is, instead of making it, I am bad, it's maybe I made a bad choice or maybe I'd like to make a different choice, or, you know, like it's kind of like a um, it's kind of showing us something that needs to be looked at Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that. It often does point to our values. And then it's like can we stay in that messy middle part? So if you feel guilt because you're in this place of feeling pulled between two things feeling like you can't be everywhere at once and that both feel important Sometimes we just don't have a lot of the skills and the tools that we need to sit in that messy place to kind of see the guilt, to see the other places and be able to then make a choice and then forgive ourselves if it was the choice that we then regret later. You know, where is the all of that where we can then also be like huh, okay, so I chose to do the work thing and I missed my kids thing. Can I sit in that dynamic and like hold space for all the things that come up? Because it is.
Speaker 1:It's like oftentimes our emotions are pointing to something that's true inside of us, but sometimes we only know how to go so deep, and so we like feel the guilt and we're like, oh, I'm doing something wrong, instead of being like digging just a little bit deeper, to be like okay, what is it that I value?
Speaker 1:Here is a hard choice. How can I have compassion for myself, that I live in a world where I'm having to make hard choices and I did the best that I could in this situation and now I can learn from that and move on. You know, it's like we have to be able to go deeper than and it's hard in our busy lives to take space and time and we don't have a lot of skills because no one's teaching kids like this at school. And so I feel like as parents, as moms, if we're learning those things and modeling that for our kids, like the things that my son knows now, that I didn't know when I was eight or nine, I'm just like, oh my gosh, I wish I had known that at eight or nine. And just remembering, like I'm modeling that even when it's messy, even when I make a mistake, even when I get it wrong, even when I feel shame, I'm like showing him how to process shame.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't think social emotional awareness or education was a thing when I was a kid or when, you know, our generation was growing up. You know, maybe there was like the beginning of it, but I don't even think so. So I think, definitely, kids these days are getting more exposure and I think you know I'm really of the mindset that they are picking it up most from home. So, even though their social emotional education in many schools now which is great I think that the best place for them to really see it, seeing it being done, is home, because we're showing them that we're human, we're showing them that feelings are not going to kill us, that we can feel the things we want to feel. You mentioned that we just don't have the tools or the coping strategies to do that, and so when you're working with moms and they have these things coming up and they're in the messy middle, what is like the first thing you instruct them to do? Or maybe like the first suggestion.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I am a big big, it's like. My passion project is self-compassion. So I'm trained as a teacher under Kristen Neff's work and things like that and I, for me, it has been foundational. I am a lover of all things personal development wise and I will read like any self-help book and there's so many amazing tools out there and I've found for myself and oftentimes for other women, that without the foundation of knowing how to relate to ourselves and our feelings and our thoughts and our physiology, without some capacity for self-compassion, being able to relate to yourself kind of the way that you relate to others in this kind open, warm and mindful way, that a lot of the other stuff, that other tools, other processes don't work as efficiently.
Speaker 1:Because we still have that inner critic voice that's so loud and we haven't grown up the space inside of ourselves to handle all the stuff that personal growth work brings up for us. Because any tool will kind of show us our shadows, It'll show us the thoughts that we're thinking. As soon as you become self-aware, you're like, whoa, there's a lot going on here. So if we can, if we can learn within a container that's got some skills around self-compassion, I feel like that. That is always where I start. So, like all my clients, take the self-compassion test just to kind of see where is it that you know you're relating to yourself and how are you doing that? In a way that's either kind or is it more critical. Are you getting kind of absorbed in your emotions or do you have some space from them and do you feel like really isolated, Like it's just me, I'm all alone, or do you feel connected to the fact that, yeah, I'm a human, these are normal, like that sense of common humanity.
Speaker 1:So that's always where I start, because that's been my life journey, and I find that that's often something that's missing. We're not taught that, either in school or often at home. We're just we're not learning that, and so it's so key.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not learning. That I heard the other day and I've heard this so many times throughout the year, so many times it's like almost, it's like cliche now, but like you can't love somebody else until you love yourself, and I went like, oh shit, that's like oh good reminder, because I'm pretty hard. I'm definitely harder on myself than I am on anyone else in my life, like for sure. And I don't know if, like, the ambition piece has something to do with it or what it is, or just that. If you don't know, you don't know if, like, the ambition piece has something to do with it or what it is, or just that. If you don't know, you don't know. And if you don't learn, you don't know how you know, whatever. And so that's something I think that I'm like I don't even want to say.
Speaker 2:I'm constantly working on it. I'm constantly like forgetting that piece. I'm doing the inner work. I'm like talking to my inner child. I'm like acupuncture, reiki, chiropractic, yoga, walking, self-care, all the things, but still, if I make a mistake or if I have a thought that is out of alignment with my values, or if I'm like feeling resentment, I'm like, hey, jerk, shut the hell up. And it's like wait a minute, like something's not adding up, and so you know, it's just like gosh. I don't even know if I have like a question here. It's just like the, the, the awareness for me that there is that big piece that's missing, and perhaps it's a culture thing, like, perhaps culture is telling us like no, don't be compassionate to thyself. Like, um, no, try harder, do all the things, be all the roles, and make yourself sick and tired in the process. You know what's your take on that Like? Where's it coming from? Is it learned? Is it like nature versus nurture that whole thing. Maybe you have some insight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want to name that I still, even though I've this has been my journey where I have been since I was young young, doing all sorts of things, like all the things you named and finally realized oh, it's this inner critical voice. And even then took all those tools and was hard on myself. For being hard on myself, I just layered it on and it really has been these practices of self-compassion that have brought me back. But I still work on it every day. I still like, before this call, I was working and being like, wow, I have like all these fears. This part of me, this inner critical voice, really wants things to go well and wants me to be okay, but it's using this like really critical motivation to get it done. And so, like you were saying, I think there's a number of factors that we're swimming in and when people have looked at those common fears that people have, because people have these kind of broad fears of like, well, if I'm kind to myself, I'm going to lose my motivation. Of like, well, you know, if I'm kind to myself, I'm letting myself off the hook and I'm just going to be one of those people. That's like parked in front of Netflix, eating cereal out of a box, like. We have these kinds of crazy images in our head of like who we will become if we're not kind of rigid and like strong, you know, holding ourselves up, like you have to stay on track. We have this false belief that if we're compassionate and kind, that we're going to lose that, which the research doesn't prove that it actually lowers motivation over time. And we don't do that anymore. I mean, people have different parenting styles, but most of us probably here in this world are really kind but firm with their kids, like that's. The thing that works is that if our kid comes home and like scored poorly on a test, you're not going to berate them the way you do in your own head. You're not going to say, oh my gosh, you're such a failure, you're never going to learn math. You're going to be like oh, what happened here? And you're going to talk them through it and then you're going to find a way of like okay, well, what can we do to make it better next time? And that is a very great way to keep someone moving forward, because it's like enhancing the growth mindset. It's holding space for all of us to make mistakes, but we don't do that in ourselves. It's really hard sometimes to do that for ourselves. So, yeah, that's a myth that we have.
Speaker 1:There's several others, but they're all kind of linked like oh well, compassion it's not strong enough, it's like weak. So we have a lot of ideas about you know how compassion is like? Um, more of the nurturing side, cause there's two sides to compassion. There's that fierce side, the like mama bear side. Kristen enough talks about that fierce side, the like mama bear side. Kristen Neff talks about that where you're like you're going to protect your kids, you're going to stand up for them. That's fierce compassion. And then there's that tender side. That's like the side that picks your kids up when they're crying and holds them Right. And then we can have both that yin and yang side of compassion. But we don't see the fierce side, we name it as something else. And so to be able to hold that of like, yeah, this nurturing side and I would argue this is my take of how powerful that is, because I think in our society as women and that skill set has been negated, you know, over time I think it's rising, but it's like a powerhouse, the ability to sit with someone who's in pain and nurture them.
Speaker 1:To me that's strength. So, to rename, I feel like there's just a lot of things that we're dealing with in our world that make compassion not the thing that feels safe. It doesn't feel safe to do, and so we kind of have to override those and there's tons of research around it, but sometimes it has to be that lived experience of giving it to ourselves and noticing huh, I'm safe afterwards, you know're okay when you're kind to yourself and knowing how to do it. So it's both of those.
Speaker 2:So what I'm hearing you say is that it's leading with kindness and compassion or no, I'm sorry kindness and curiosity. So, hmm, like something didn't go right here. Wow, I wonder what could be different next time. And that's something that I try to do with my kids, that I try to do with my partner, and it's like you know, it can be hardest for ourselves, which is so interesting, and I'm going to be kind and curious about that for myself. And another thing I heard you say was, if I'm kind to myself, I'm going to lose my motivation.
Speaker 2:This is big, because I think the cultural expectation for I mean, let's just say for women and girls maybe, but maybe for everybody is to work hard and do a good job and hustle and really pull all-nighters to really get the job done.
Speaker 2:And while I think some of that is being kind of peeled away, I think that it's still really inherent in our culture, especially but not limited to mothers and working mothers, stay-at-home mothers, homeschooling mothers, whatever mothers like period, no matter what.
Speaker 2:The life choice is there, but the life choices there it's a 24-7 job, all-encompassing, life-altering right. So it's like I'm glad that you brought up that. I'm glad that you brought up that example because it's like we feel like we have to be hard on ourselves because that's how we learned to do it and to me, a lot of it comes down to education. It's one of the reasons that I've veered towards the more alternative education path is because it's like no standardized testing or no comparing to the other kids, less competition. It just feels a little softer. While that may not be a fit for everybody and I do believe every kid deserves a personalized education and I wish we could do that in a larger system setting. I don't know if it's possible, but yeah. So let's kind of double click on this motivation piece, this ambition piece of what we want as mothers and how we need to be this, that and everything to everybody else our employers and our children and our partners and everybody and how we just kind of get like left in the background there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that circles back to mom guilt, because, like, self-care has come up in the world of like something that we're supposed to do and it's good for ourselves, and there's so many people talking about how that's important, especially for women, and to put yourself on the list and make yourself a priority, and it's really hard to do. And that's a lot where, like guilt comes up and I think that, as a whole, we have that in our society. I was talking to my husband the other day and he went out for a walk and was like noticing that voice in his head of like you're being lazy instead of it being like this is a nourishing thing for me to do and I have space in my day to make it happen Right, and that often comes up for all of us when we take that downtime. It's not easy to take it, because we've got that voice going of like well, you have so many other things to do, and what if you fall behind? And um, and we feel like we have to do it because self-care is like now on the list of things that we have to do. So it's become this like double-edged sword of like well, I need to take time for myself because otherwise I'm not going to be able to get it all done. Yeah, and I just feel like yeah again. It's like coming back to those skills of like can we sit with curiosity? Can I have some space between all my parts?
Speaker 1:I'm a big proponent of parts work through IFS and other things, and that's how I've always kind of related to different aspects of myself, because I have the perfectionist and I have the people pleaser and I have all these parts that are trying that like hyperachiever who wants me to do really well and get all the accolades, and looking at all these parts, and they're just trying to keep us safe. They have this undercurrent of like, if I do X, I won't suffer, I won't get hurt, I won't get rejected, I won't feel pain, I will feel better. But the irony is that the strategies that they employ kind of make us swim in this place of anxiety and overwhelm and weariness and it makes it hard for us to kind of move through our days. And then you have modern life on top of that. That's activating.
Speaker 1:We just have a lot on our plate, we have a lot of expectations, some of which we could, you know, kind of manage by setting more boundaries or doing different things, and some of which is just like if you drive 45 minutes to work in traffic, like that's just going to be a daily stressor and yeah, you could change jobs, you could rearrange your life to try and make it perfect, but it's also like you have the things that probably are just going to be there, and then you have this internal world that you doesn't always feel like we have more choice in, but I really feel like that's where the power is of like, how do we handle this inner stress that we're feeling?
Speaker 1:And part of that is relating to these parts that are so ambitious, that feel like so much is on our plate, that are adding things to our plate to keep us safe, and so it's like, how do we look at those with more clarity and with compassion, because it's really easy to be like, oh, this part that's so loud, how do we like turn towards it and not resist it or fight it or believe it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it and not resist it or fight it or believe it, yeah. So I'm really glad you brought up parts work, because I've been listening to a lot of Richard Schwartz and, um, there are different things on part, on parts work, yeah, and I think it's a really um approachable way to relate to ourselves, because it's not who we are. It's not so like, oh my God, I'm this. It's like a part of me is this? And I'm going to bring up just a relevant example.
Speaker 2:I became a mom nine and a half-ish years ago with my first child and I decided that I'm staying home with my child, I'm stopping my career. We were like adding up my husband's very small salary at the time, like putting like diapers as a line item and all these things, and like we can make it work, and I just like chose this path. A big part of me at that time said I'm going to stay at home with my child. I didn't think about it long-term, I didn't think about it at all. I just thought like this is the right thing right now and now, since then, this other part of me, who's very ambitious, who's very creative, who's very entrepreneurial minded, who has lots to say, lots to do, lots of boxes to check is like coming up and going, hey, what about me? And that's just been progressively happening over the last nine years. And so, like, we have all like many, many parts.
Speaker 2:But these are two parts that I want to like just bring to light. And one of them is like the stay at home mom, who's like the nurturing, da da da, and she's like cooking three meals a day and she's homeschooling our kids and she's like nurturing in all the ways. And then the other one is like this, like, but I've got shit to do in the world, and these parts are like very they're butting heads because one of them believes that the other you know that one way is the right way, and then the other believes that the other way. And so for me, maybe you have like a take on this. I'm sure you do. I've been like integrating those parts together going well, like you can just have it all, sister, so they're okay. Maybe there's this third part of me going like girl, you can have it all, like the world is your oyster.
Speaker 2:And so I'm like trying to like meld these two parts together, working moms and like maybe just get, just help me on how to come to terms with. Like I've considered myself a stay-at-home mom for so many years, then got kind of thrown into homeschooling in the fall of 2020 when my oldest was going into kindergarten, and then I was like, oh, this is kind of cool and maybe I could do both. But now I'm finding this like internal struggle of, hmm, how do I honor both of these, like needs that I have. So how often do you see that come up? What advice do you have for me to get my life together? You know all that.
Speaker 1:What's the solution?
Speaker 1:Tell me everything, yeah yeah, well, first I just want to name that I hear you because I've been. I've actually that mirrors my own. Like my journey was that I was a burnt out teacher and then I got pregnant and I knew I wanted to stay home with my kiddo and we made a lot of choices and sacrifices. We went to live with in-laws so that I could take that year and a half on my own to like, just really be with my kiddo. And then I have those other parts that are like, well, what are these other sides? And so I went back to teaching for a little bit. I started my own coaching business.
Speaker 1:I've been in those roles and now I'm a homeschooling mom, you know, balancing it all in perfectly and all those parts too, of like, how do I do it? And sometimes I have these ideas that there's like a perfect way to do it, like this is what a homeschooling mom looks like, or this is what a stay at home parent looks like, or this is what a working parent looks like, or an entrepreneurial mom, cause we see all those models. I mean we're in a world where you're like, oh, they've got it right, and I don't. But the truth is is that we're all figuring it out and there's no way to do this Like it's easy to compare. That's another part that I have my little comparison queen who loves to be like well, this homeschooling mom is doing all these things with her kids, and how can I do that when I'm working three days a week, you know? Can I do that when I'm working three days a week, you know? And it's like I always coming back to like this is me and my life. I can't remember who it was.
Speaker 1:There was a beautiful book I read and she was just like staying it's a common phrase too, but it's just stay in your own lane. Like we're always peering over the other lanes to be like how are they doing it? Which a common thing. Of course, humans are trying to figure out where they are in the like totem pole ranking and all those kinds of things, but to be like, no, this is my life. The only person I need to compare myself and I living my values. Am I returning to myself, checking in? You know, doing my best, whatever that looks like on a particular day, based on where my energy is, where I am in my cycle. You know all these things of like. Can I just be both brilliant in the way that I'm showing up and totally imperfect, and how do I hold those things? So that's always that place I come back to of like, yeah, there is a way for you to have both your ambition and your care for your kids, and it's going to look different than anyone else's way of doing that.
Speaker 1:And just like remembering like I'm doing it and I'm figuring it out, and we don't have a lot of models yet. You know Like so it is. We are kind of pioneering the way, and sometimes that's helpful to remember. It's not like your mom and your grandmother and all these other women ahead of us showed us how to do all this, like we're in a new frontier and we're trying to figure it out on our own.
Speaker 1:And again, that's another place for self-compassion of like I'm figuring all this out, I'm learning day by day, I'm growing day by day. I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to learn, I'm going to show up brilliantly and I'm going to fail sometimes.
Speaker 2:Right, we're on the Oregon trail and we just got a snake bite.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we're running out of supplies.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, oh my gosh. Oh, that was a good flashback from the past.
Speaker 1:I loved that game.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was so good. I'm like the little first Mac. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And that's staticky music, all this stuff, yes.
Speaker 2:So good. Oh God, that's classic. If our kids saw that, they would be like what is this you speak of? What is this rock tablet? No, so I just I love that because the answer is inside and huge through line throughout every podcast episode, almost that like the answer is inside of us.
Speaker 2:And something I've been coming back to recently is like I get to choose what my life feels like and looks like. Like I get to choose, and while some days that feels hard or it feels like, even though I'm saying it, it feels like not true in a way, like the small choices, like do I go for a walk in between my podcast or do I like like I just the very small choices every single day that we make. And so I think that's such a beautiful Testament and like what a, what an awakening of like time for me that this has been, like you said, like working three days a week and it's like you know we have this like precious time, you know, without our kids. For me, like that they're in their co-op a few days a week, same, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I get to do whatever I want and that is both exciting and then also like, oh my gosh, we'll have to make the most of it. And then also, like I think I've found that the more ease I can invite in like, the easier I allow it to all be, the better it feels. And like filling the days with the things that feel really good. These conversations always feel really good. I see them on my calendar and I know that it's a big chunk of time and I walk away from them going yes, this is the thing, this is the thing I'm meant to be doing.
Speaker 2:I'm putting these beautiful conversations out in the world and talking to amazing and talented human beings like you. And it's just, it's so important to have these conversations. They're not really happening like at the park or at the mommy and me necessarily like sometimes, but I think that this is important to make it a more mainstream conversation of like we have choices as mothers and as I love that you're a former teacher too as parents whose children are needing an education, whatever that looks like for you, like same, we get to choose for them. Like, not only do we get to choose for us, but we get to choose for them. And that's like mind blowing too, because it looks completely different than it did 30 years ago. I mean completely different than it did 30 years ago. I mean micro schools, co-ops, like study centers, like there are just so many varied options and we literally get to create something from nothing.
Speaker 2:And so, while that is like a beautiful honor and blessing, it can also be a little bit overwhelming because it's like where do we start? There's not that many people going ahead of us. I call it like expanders, like people like doing the thing that we want to do Right. And so, yeah, I mean for someone who's out there going, I know I can like create this thing, but how do I do it? Where do I start? Like, maybe you have some intuitive guidance on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the biggest thing when people are like I don't know where to start is such a good question of like if I did know. I mean, this is very a coachy question, but if I did know, what would I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and it always making it small because all of us can get in that place where we're like this is. I mean, we have, like, the world at our fingertips and so it also feels like we should know right away or that it would be easy to Google. And these things are like plants, they're like seeds. We're in spring right now, so it's like it takes a little time. And how do we kind of plant that seed of like huh, if I did know? Again, moving back into that curiosity piece, naming that maybe you feel urgent to know now or that you need to figure it out sooner, naming that those parts might still be coming up, but just like giving a little more space and being like, okay, I'm gonna plant the seed of curiosity. If I did know, what would it be? And not worrying if you don't have the answer right away, because a lot of the times these have to percolate, like all the studies show. Like if you sleep on it, our minds go to work for us and it comes to us in the shower when we're relaxed or, like you know, when we're out having a good time. All of a sudden, that like idea of like I could talk to that person. Oh wait, I know this person because our brains aren't stressed, they're calm and the answer can come to us Right. And to remember too that it's like a process and an unfolding of like okay, maybe I talked to that person and they don't give me the ultimate answer, but they give me another person to connect with or they name a book and you read it and you get interested in that and you join a course or wherever your path might lead you to kind of keep tuning in and sometimes to listen to those. It takes time to listen to the quiet voice. It's not like the inner critic which is really loud and easy to hear if you tune in these inner stirrings and whisperings, and that it's like a little sprout coming up and so to create, even if it's just like 30 seconds, building in a little bit of that space in our lives to be like what is going on. Can I tune in internally and listen and making that a skill that we know how to develop?
Speaker 1:I think it is really essential to finding the answer to those questions, because it usually doesn't come from outside of ourselves. It usually is something that we can tune into in and we might get outside resources that move us to the next place. But usually we know I really have absolute faith that most of us know what's best for us. Like as a coach, I'm never like, oh, I know all the answers to your life.
Speaker 1:I'm like I am going to hold the space here and believe that you absolutely can figure it out and I'm going to hold the space together so you don't have to do it alone, because a lot of times I think we have that idea of like, well, I just have to figure it out on my own. We want to be seen as self-sufficient, but really we we become. I said on another place the other day it's a quote from Claire Zamet, who's kind of in the feminine power movement and she says we can't become ourselves by ourselves. And so it's through these kinds of conversations and you just never know who it is that's going to help kind of hold that space or help you hear that whisper. But you have the answers truly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Any coach who says that to me, I'm like yes, because I think I spent a lot of time thinking that the answer would come from the outside, or if someone would just tell me what the right thing is. And there is a helpful space for, like having someone mirror your brilliance back to you and having someone lovingly point out your blind spot. There is that like, there is a space for coaching and mentoring and guidance. But at the end of the day, like it's us, it's coming from inside. Like it's us it's coming from inside.
Speaker 2:And I think too, as these ambitious women who are doing it all, wanting it all great like it's we have to get back to the ease, the ability to being open to receiving that inner guidance. Because what I found was I was working on like autopilot for so long, which was this Sometimes, like I can still be there, Like it still happens, but like I was on it for like years with like not even realizing so when I was able to slow down and, you know, get the space and listen. It wasn't easy, but like over years it's been a practice to like know when that voice is coming from love and from trust rather than fear or anxiety about the future or the next thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it is. I think it's normalized in our world. So many of us are on that autopilot. We're just switched on and we don't know how to turn off and it can feel uncomfortable. I just want to name that. It does take a while because our bodies aren't. This is our normal. If we're up here, that's what feels normal and safe to our nervous system, and so sometimes down-regulating and slowing down can feel scary and hard and just naming that that's a normal part of the process and that there's not something wrong because you're going through that. But by slowing down we are able to.
Speaker 1:I've been reading a lot of polyvagal theory too, of like it's more about the flexibility of being able to notice when you're in that heightened state and see if it's appropriate to be there and if, if it's not, to be able to shift to a different kind of system to be able to slow down or activate a calmer center.
Speaker 1:You know how to move through all the different states because there's no ultimate place that we're going to all get to, where we're just like calm, that is all even, and nothing bad happens in our lives and no stressors come in, or, if they do, we're just totally calm about them, like our bodies and our nervous systems and ourselves are meant to fluctuate. I had my therapist because I'm a big fan of therapy and coaching and getting support and she was just talking to one of my parts and it was like you remember that life's okay, that it goes up and down, and this part is really wanting it to stay really smooth, like feeling like that safe. But it's really about how do you ride in like breath work. They're talking or meditation about how to ride the waves and it is. It's like how can we move through life with some flexibility, and that's really key.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love the metaphor of the wave. That's always really landed for me in my birthing experiences. I did hypnobirthing and one of the affirmations is like about the wave, and so I learned a lot about life through birth. You know, of course, which makes sense, yeah, yeah, and so, like learning to like cause it's like, okay, I can like do anything for 30 seconds, Right, and then it's like you have a break. And then it's like, oh, I have this break.
Speaker 2:And it's like the polarity of the, the contracting and then the expansion, like being able to have space for them both and notice them both, know that you're not going to be in pain or whatever that thing is sadness or, you know, anxiety, forever notice, noticing that. It's like it's a part of life, like that it's going up and down and you know when you're in it. When you're in it, it's like no, like you know we push that away. But after like making it through a few times, our brain starts to go like, okay, like I saw that, like we've tested, like we've got proof of concept here, a little bit, Like I'm starting to believe it, and I think this is why it's like a lifelong journey. You know, I think this is why it's like that. There's different layers of things that we're peeling back and it's just always this process.
Speaker 2:So I want to ask you about burnout a little bit, and then I'm going to wrap up the conversation with the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the interviews. But first let's just touch on burnout like a tiny bit, speaking of waves, because I would consider burnout to be like not a wave, but like bottom of the trench where like maybe the wave up like doesn't come or you're like really stuck. So what's your take on burnout and how can we preemptively? Obviously self-care, but how can we preemptively like see it and prevent it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, million dollar question, right yeah. So there's so many different like formal and informal definitions of burnout and it really does have to do with that like where you're hitting that wall of exhaustion and you're just like in a place of like stress over a prolonged period of time. So if you're feeling like so weary, if you have a lot of physical symptoms like I know, when I hit burnout I was actually experiencing a lot of vertigo and just you know, sometimes people say they can't sleep Like if you're waking up at night like trying to remember all the things on your to-do list, or if you wake up with a bunch of dread and anxiety, or or just this overwhelming wave of like I can't do it all, you have so many demands and there's no space in your day. Those are just some of the signs that you probably are either at burnout or reaching burnout and naming that. It's not always, it's usually both and I feel like I know for me there was internal factors that were leading to burnout and there were definite external, circumstantial aspects that were leading to burnout as well. So to be know that it's not, it's not your fault and that everyone, our world, is just the hustle and grind culture. It like demands burnout from us and so people who are empathetic and wanting to like ambitious are people pleasers Any of those. If you have those caricatures in your brain like you're going to have that propensity to lean into it brain like you're going to have that propensity to lean into it. And so knowing that those are the signs and sometimes you can't catch it until it gets all the way in, and that's okay to to like figure out, knowing if you've hit that wall and you just don't enjoy your days, and then you know it's not like depression or full blown anxiety or something like that Cause those mirror but are different.
Speaker 1:You know anyone you reach out to at that point, whether it is a therapist or a coach or just even talking to a friend of like I'm feeling really tired can help mirror back that way of like. Yeah, this is burnout and we need to kind of move back into a space and oftentimes we need support to make those changes. So I know I had support when I was leaving teaching because there was a lot of identity, there was a lot of stuff wrapped up in making that choice. So to get to that point, we often need some support to help us see, like you said, where are we stretching beyond our boundaries, like, where are we saying yes when we should say no? Where are we letting our ambition, kind of like, run us ragged, you know? So having someone else to reflect those back and then taking the time to reflect, and all of this is like there's like not an easy answer.
Speaker 1:But I think once you know what it feels like in your body when you're overly tired, again it takes tuning in to catch it early, because once you know the signs, then you can start to catch it earlier and earlier, because oftentimes, like I have two burnout stories, like they're different One was pre-motherhood and one was post and they come through in these ways and they they come through in these ways and different things can come up in them and the same tendencies that lead you one time towards burnout will probably show up in that same place.
Speaker 1:So to be aware of like where it is like are you holding onto so much control or are you leaning into habits that don't serve you?
Speaker 1:Like I always know when I'm wanting to watch too much TV and I'm not a huge TV watcher but when I just want to binge on something comfortable, like friends or something else like that where I'm like oh, I'm trying to escape my life, what do I need to look at?
Speaker 1:So there's that line that you have to learn of like, oh, I'm just enjoying the end of the day, versus I'm trying to escape from what's happening. So there's not a cut and dried, but knowing what um. To me it's like how do you keep checking in with yourself? To me, that's the biggest sign of like how, if you are making it even a small practice to tune into what's going on for yourself, those, well, that will be a pattern that will help you stop um, leading into burnout, because you'll become more self-aware and be able to catch patterns or seek help or get support or ask for more help at home, whatever it is, before it gets to the place where you're like oh my gosh, I thought I could be super woman and yet I'm a human. And now, like, everything is closing around me and I can't do any of it anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, because we do have so much capacity, like our capacity for greatness, like it's, it's real, like I do believe, like we just we're, we're brilliant and we've got great ideas and we're mothers, and like we can change the world by starting at home, like I do believe it. And so there's a lot of doing that's involved in that. But, you know, I think balancing the doing and the being is really, really important and it's something that I'm hoping I'm modeling for my kids too, because I love doing, I love being a doer. I'm modeling for my kids, too, because I love doing, I love being a doer.
Speaker 2:And I had to come to grips with like it's life is not all about doing, and so much of the beauty is like actually found in the simplicity and just the really like quiet moments that don't. They're not like grand and we're not on vacation. We're, like you know, knee deep in dishes when, like, our baby takes their first step, or like there's like a blowout in the bed and we're like noticing how much we love this, like tiny human that we're taking care of. You know, it's like such the simplest times that is just like this immense, like miracle of life that we can witness. So I love that. Where can we follow you and find you and learn more about the work that you're doing, jennifer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I always encourage people to reach out to me through my website. So it's my first name, so Jennifer Irwin, coachingcom, and on there, um, I've got a fun quiz that you know can help you figure out which part of yours is causing you the most stress, whether it's your hyperachiever, your perfectionist or your people pleaser, or maybe all of them. I that's definitely where I come out on that quiz, so you can sign up and take that quiz or even just book a call. It's free. This is again when you were talking about your passion, like knowing that that's what it is.
Speaker 1:When I get on coaching calls whether it's just a free call or someone who's one of my clients I'm just like I am doing what I need to be doing and I'm feeling so much joy and presence in those. So it can feel really intimidating to be like and I know I felt that, so that's why I'm naming it to sign up for a free call, but I really do. I there was no, ever no obligation and it really truly is a joy for me to talk to people and maybe I could be the next stepping stone, even if I'm not the right fit, just know like it's OK and you can like try something, and if it's not the right fit, you can move on to the next thing, and maybe it's the lily pad that you needed to get to your next hop, to the next place.
Speaker 2:So thank you so much for that, and I do urge you, if you resonated with this conversation, like I have to book a free call because I think, like the resources there, like it's an offering for you for a reason I know how much insight and wisdom you could give to someone in a 20-minute conversation just by hearing them.
Speaker 2:Because I pointed out the blind spot thing.
Speaker 2:Every once in a while we're so caught in our own story of what our life is, it is hard to see the forest through the trees, and so I think, like taking many steps like this is just such a good, a good way to honor what we're needing, to seek out more support.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't mean like it doesn't mean we need to drop $30,000 on this, like golden coaching, one-on-one opportunity. It just means, like you know, we can explore and find what's right for us out there, and maybe it's just doing a call or two with a few people just to see and then like getting enough clarity and insight to like rest or, you know, make something, or like taking the next right step, because it's not like it doesn't happen in a day, it doesn't happen in a month, as much as I would love to say that it did. It's just, you know, it's like it's a marathon, it's a long-term game. So thank you so much for the work you do in the world. I'm going to ask you the three questions I ask everybody at the end of the interviews, and the first one is what's bringing you joy today?
Speaker 1:uh, so two things, if that's okay. So when my son is home today but he and he's not feeling great, but he's still in that kind of like I'm home and I'm not feeling great, but just the playful place and like being kind of goofy and silly and just remembering that that's okay, I can be really a serious person. And so, again, children, and your own children especially, are such good reminders of like how to just lean into that and be like this is life, right, life is happening right now and like why wouldn't we just laugh at how weird and funny and ridiculous it sometimes is? And then the second is my cat. He's a loud snorer. So every time I hear him snoring, like all curled up, all sweet and I, it just brings me joy.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it. We were talking on the previous interview of um how dogs and cats just like emanate such love, like unconditional love, like they vibrate at this like actual loving frequency. It's so cool, it is yeah, that's amazing. What, if anything, are you reading right now?
Speaker 1:Um, I'm trying to remember the name of it. I'm wondering if I have it.
Speaker 2:I know I see all the books behind you. I'm like I'm such a book person so I'm like give me all the titles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I'm trying to. I think it's called the nervous system reset and I'm I'm trying to remember the name of the person. I'm really bad with author's names, um anyone's names actually where they're like. You know that actor and you're like trying to find it Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think it's called the nervous system reset and she's just talking about polyvagal theory and how how we can move between those systems. It's something that I've been leaning into lately, and so that one, and then I just read all the light we cannot see. So I like to have the fiction and the non. I'm a nonfiction. I will check out 10 nonfiction books but I've been trying to indulge myself. This year it's one of my goals to like read a fun nonfiction book and that one's beautiful, hard but beautiful.
Speaker 2:Ooh, I love that. I'm going to put it on my list because I'm also nonfiction all the way, like 99 out of a hundred books. And then every like I'll read the alchemist, like once a year, which is like my favorite story. You know like I love it. But yeah, I need to add a little more fiction in there too. All the light we cannot see it. Balanced it out. Yeah, A little bit Cool. And then the last question I have for you is who or what has taught you the most?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I always struggle with these questions because I'm I'm such a um gray area kind of lady where I'm like the most, so I'll just I'm trying to think who has taught me?
Speaker 2:Well, you could say the gray area has taught you the most. I mean, like you could say that. But you can say whatever you want, Of course.
Speaker 1:I wonder if some of my inner characters have taught me the most. So I, recently I also have a coach. I feel like we do, we just need each other. So I like I'm like yeah, I can't see my own blind spots, even though I'm like a coach and have tons of training Like I need someone else from the outside to tell me sometimes what's going on.
Speaker 1:And she was just talking about we were relating to how these parts are in us and what if I could? Just what if, like I don't ever have to be alone because all this course of all these little parts of me are always going to be there with me, always trying to help me do the best, and they're always the more I can turn towards them and love on them. Like they're my biggest teachers of like, oh, what am I not accepting inside myself, but also in the world, like again, it's like they're mirrors of what we're resisting out in the world as well, not just internally, and so maybe that has been one of my biggest teachers is all those you know, hard thoughts and difficult feelings and little parts that are trying their best to help me but also creating a lot of inner havoc at times.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that. Thank you so much. This was a beautiful conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for having me, thank you for doing that, thanks for doing your big work in the world so that we can have these conversations, and yet you can bring this out into the world, because I think it's really needed. So thank you for your work too.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.