Nature, Sensory Learning, and Child Development: A Deep Dive with Jena Ponti Jauchius

Do you ever stop to consider how nature shapes your children's development? Tune in to our captivating conversation with Jena Ponti Jauchius, renowned landscape architect and nature play expert, as we unravel the incredible power of sensory learning. Listen as Jena recounts her personal journey of creating a sensory-rich garden for her twin girls, a haven where they are free to explore their senses, discover their passions, and follow their curiosity.

As we delve deeper into the conversation, we unearth the profound impact of nature on child development. Jena and I exchange ideas on how natural play and learning environments can nurture children's sense of self and independence. We ponder on the essence of our daily connection with nature - the serenity that ensues from this primal bond, the energizing effect of the earth, and the ways it influences our children's development. To enrich this discussion, Jena provides an in-depth guide through the seven sensory systems and how we can foster an environment at home that boosts our children's body awareness.

In the final segment of our conversation, we navigate the intriguing realm of neurodiversity, emphasizing the importance of inclusive environments. Jena offers insights into how neurodivergent children can thrive in environments that cater to their unique needs. We grapple with the rising incidence of neurodiversities in children today, and explore how understanding these differences can foster compassion and connection. So, join us on this enlightening journey as we dissect the captivating interplay between nature, sensory learning, and child development.

RESOURCES, QUOTES, & LINKS

“Muddy clothes are a sign of a life lived.” 

“We get caught up in the daily grind and it feels hard to hit the pause button to revel in the beauty and the joy and the laughter. Nature helps us do that.”
—Jena Ponti Jauchius

—Ryann Watkin 

“It’s ok to redefine what it means to be an adult. There are lots of ways to find joy from our kids.”
 —Jena Ponti Jauchius

“When you can create a natural play and learning environment in your own home, it allows kids to find out who they are and to build that up and make it strong. As they go into adulthood, they’re coming from a strong sense of who they are and a strong sense of independence.” 
—Jena Ponti Jauchius

“It’s so easy to start building a small area for your children’s play and learning. I always start with the kids—what do your kids love to do?” 
—Jena Ponti Jauchius

Head here to grab Jena’s free guide, Nature Play Their Way Quick Start Guide 

“Cozy spaces help children balance their nervous system. If they’re overstimulated, if it’s too noisy, if there’s too many people around they can go into a cozy space and regulate their own nervous system to help bring them into balance.”
—Jena Ponti Jauchius

“When we can come together and have compassion for one another and try to understand one another that’s when magic can happen.”
—Jena Ponti Jauchius

Jena’s book list

An Immense World by Ed Yong 

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Exploring Sensory Learning in Nature

Ryann 0:02

Welcome, Revolutionary Mama, to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. I'm Ryan Watkin, Educator, Mama of Three Reveal It Heart and Passionate Soul, on a Mission to empower and inspire you.

Ryann 0:16

Here we'll explore psychology, spirituality, parenthood and the intersection where they all come together. We'll discover how challenges can be fertile soil for growth and that even in the messy middle of motherhood, we can find magic in the mundane. Join me on my own personal journey as I talk to experts and share resources on education, creativity, self-care, family, culture and more. I believe we can change the world by starting at home, in our own minds and hearts, and that when we do, we'll be passing down the most important legacy there is Healing, and so it is Hello and welcome. Back to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. So I'm just talking to the most amazing humans. I just am so thankful that I'm here doing this thing and I'm thankful that you're here and listening, because this is really gosh. This is such a labor of love for me.

Ryann 1:18

It's been a really, really busy week as we're recording this episode. I am starting to plan out the summer. I'm taking some time off, so I'm dropping down to summer hours. So as you're listening to this, i'm probably chilling somewhere on a beach, just sunning, which is great, and I hope you guys are getting a chance to do the same. I never used to be a big fan of the summer season. But as I've gotten older and my kids have gotten into a little routine, i kind of like the slowdown of it all And I'm really looking forward to just kind of slowing down. But in the meantime, i'm talking to just like the most amazing humans on the planet. It's really, really cool. So I've got another amazing human to share with you guys today.

Ryann 2:01

One of the first things I learned when we started to go kind of an alternative education route was that we are sensory or sensual beings and that we learn and take in information through our senses. And though that sounds obvious to some of you, maybe it wasn't that obvious to me And but it was a light bulb moment when I started to see my kids really dig into the Play-Doh or start to dig into the dirt, how they never want to put shoes on, how they want to climb to the highest place and then jump down from that place, so how they love when I use essential oils and how just like a deep breath of lavender just kind of chills everybody out. And so I'm really really fascinated by this idea that we're all sensory beings and that it's one of the best and biggest way our kids learn and such an amazing foundation for them to learn and grow through. So we have just an expert here today to just to drop so much wisdom and I'm so excited to talk to her.

Ryann 3:11

So we're with Jenna Ponti-Jocos today, and Jenna is a internationally recognized landscape architect and nature play expert with over two decades of designing nature based play, learning and therapeutic environments for children of all abilities and neurodiversities. She also teaches early childhood professionals, educators and parents how to create sensory rich, natural play and learning places tailored to their children's unique bodies, minds and spirits. Jenna is also the mom of twin girls, who have taught her more about her work than any professional experience ever could Amen to that. Together, they have built a sensory garden in their own yard, which adds magic to their lives every day. They live in a pink farmhouse on several acres outside of Spokane, washington. Welcome to the podcast, jenna, thank you so much.

Ryann 4:03

Ryan, i'm so happy to be here. Oh my gosh, i'm really happy to talk to you, and you've got this beautiful image in the background that I pointed out before we started recording, and that's your magical sensory garden that you've built.

Jena 4:15

It is. Yeah, we started building it when the kids were two and a half and they're eight now. I've got twin girls and they have mostly supervised the construction of it. I bet they have Let me know what to do. You know how that goes right? Oh, yes, i do. It's turned into this really magical is the only word I can come up with for it, because it gives us so much more than the naked eye can even describe. We're out there every day, morning, daytime and evening. It's just, it's given so much to us and it's allowed my girls to really explore who they are and explore, as you mentioned, their senses, which helps us discover who we are.

Ryann 5:02

So I think that's such a valuable point in that we learn about ourselves when we're kids and adults by bouncing off the environment around us not, you know sometimes literally for us, and so I think that nature is such a beautiful landscape for us to learn about ourselves.

Jena 5:23

It is, and for all of us, but kids in particular, it really does start with the senses. I mean, you know, if you think about it, when you, when kids pop out in the world, their mission is to gain as much sensory experience as possible in all the different ways, because that is how we truly understand our environment, how to navigate and thrive in our environment, how to understand ourselves and really, through our senses, it's one of the ways that we discover who we are, discover our passions, follow our curiosity, And so it's really kind of an obvious tool that we don't use to the fullest extent. And, as parents, it's really important for us to allow our kids the time and the space in the environments to explore their senses in the fullest ways that they can. And it's really challenging right now in today's parenting world, with the competition for screens and all of that, to be able to do that right, you know, and some parents are working multiple jobs and single parents and that sort of thing, and so it's. It can be very challenging, but the payoff is extraordinary.

Ryann 6:41

Right, yeah, i think you know. the other day we were out and about and there was a mom. it was, it had rained and you know how puddles are after it rains. I mean that's like an open invitation to just jump in it. And this mom said don't you dare go jump in that puddle.

Ryann 6:59

I saw her see her kids, you know, want to go for it. And she goes don't you dare do that. And I'm like, where did we get this? Like stay out of nature, don't get dirty. And so you know, i don't know where it came from, but it seems like really embedded And I think a lot of the work you're doing and you've been doing for a number of years is kind of saying like no, i'm going to push back and I'm going to show everybody that this can be normal, this can be joyful And this is a really important part about who we are and who our kids are. Yeah, absolutely.

Jena 7:34

That brought to mind a few things for me, one of which is man, if we as parents, if we follow our kids into that fun and into that joy, what would that do for our own lives?

Ryann 7:48

Right.

Jena 7:50

Like taking off these burdens, you know, get rid of some of those responsibilities that we think we have and just have fun for a while. And so I think, like my personal opinion, i bet you and your audience, you know, children are our greatest teachers And if we actually stop and listen to their wisdom, it is, it's life changing. Yeah, and puddles being muddy and you know, muddy clothes, grass, stains all of this is just a sign of a life lived right, and it's exactly what kids need to be doing in childhood. And so let's let go of that, of that you know nonsense, and just follow them into this joy that they have. That's in hate, it's so beautiful, yeah.

Ryann 8:39

That's a beautiful point, because if we let them lead, we can see and feel that fullest expression of our inner child, maybe, or something that we never got, or just how to express joy in the moment. I think we get caught up in these daily grinds and it's hard to hit the pause button, or it feels hard and just like revel in the beauty and the joy and the laughter. You know and I, nature helps us do that. For me, obviously, for you, yeah, yeah, this is a big invitation And, as a preface, i was never like a nature lover.

Ryann 9:19

I had one of the moms who you know, and I love you, mom, but put your shoes on, you know, be still when I visit your house, put your shoes on if you're going outside. She's loosened up a little bit but and you know, don't get muddy, don't get dirty, you know that kind of a thing. But I do remember, you know, we had kind of a big wooded area behind one of our houses And so I do remember getting a little freedom to play in those woods And I remember, you know, catching tadpoles or something out of like a ditch in the front of our house, and but it was never like a nature lover. It was never baked into who I was, but looking back, those are some of the best memories. How do we, as parents, kind of, how do we loosen those reins?

Ryann 10:07

or how do we like, let go a little bit to just give our kids like a teensy bit more freedom, just like 10% more, 20% more, like for somebody who's saying or thinking yeah, that sounds great And I get it, but you know, giving yourself permission to live in that moment with them, because you'd have to recognize at the time, you may never get that moment back.

Jena 10:32

And they are here to show you something, and it might be very simple, it might be very profound, it just whatever that moment is bringing them, yeah, and they are a mechanism to bring it to you. And so, you know, i would say, just make it an intention once a day and then the next day make a detention twice a day, and then pretty soon it will become something that's more natural to say yes, it's okay to say yes to these things, it's okay to redefine what it means to be an adult, in that there are lots of ways to find joy through our kids. And so I would say it has to be a personal decision and just make it an intention to say yes one more time that day to them.

Ryann 11:28

What do your kids teach you on a daily basis?

Jena 11:31

Oh, boy, a ton. So you would think twins are interesting. They're my only children and they're very different, and so I learned different things from both of them. The older twin, edda she is a wise soul and a tiny body and knows more about the world sometimes, i think, than I do, and so I often find myself really valuing her opinion and her perspective on an adult level And not like it's a parent, young child level, so just to see. And there are a lot of similarities between her and I, and so when I see her get angry about things it's like, wow, okay, so what in that situation is something about me, like how do I get angry in a similar situation? Because I see it's like not necessary, and so it really. She's kind of a mirror for me and has really kind of informed my reactions and situations and allowed me to see it, a new perspective and ways for growth in myself.

Jena 12:50

And the other twin, alvi she's my free spirit And she is here for fun and hugs and eating sausage That's. She told me once when she was four years old that she had four brains Once one for play, one for sausage, because she loves that's her favorite food, one for hugging and one for acting like a maniac, and so she's like, she's the live in the moment sort of gal, and she's the one who will bring you love when the situation is really tense. And so there's there's a lot to be learned from that, and so you know it's I really want to, and that's one of the reasons why we created the garden in the in our yard is to give them time and nature and it's nature with a little end which is just as important as nature with a big end But time outside time and nature.

Nature and Child Development

Jena 13:49

And we've created some spaces for them to really explore their own interests, and I can talk about that in here in a minute. But the reason why I wanted to do that is because they're so individual and all kids are so individual, and so when you can create a natural play and learning environment in your own home, it allows kids just to find out who they are and to really kind of build it up and make it strong. And so they're there. As they go into adulthood, they're coming from a strong sense of who they are, sense of independence. And so I'm, i'm like every day, i'm just, i love seeing them blossom And I don't want them to grow up so fast, but I really look forward to seeing who they are as adults. I'm just, i'm just so thrilled.

Ryann 14:45

Yeah, isn't it fascinating the role that the genetics play in our children. I have a very similar experience of my two girls. I have two girls and then a toddler boy, and they're about 22 months apart and everybody always asks them if they're 22. They look very similar, they speak very similar, but they are very different. One of the projects we did last year with our nature school was we they both adopted a tree and it was in the same lake. We're in Florida and there were cypress trees surrounding this lake And so one of them picked the cypress tree here and then the other picked it there. And wouldn't you know it, throughout the seasons these cypress trees did exactly just different things. I mean, they were 20 to 30 feet apart on the same lake. I mean same weather, same everything, and they were so different And I was like what a metaphor for my two children.

Jena 15:40

That's beautiful.

Ryann 15:42

Yeah, it's fascinating, and I think too, to play off of that a little bit, like there are just so many natural pardon the pun learning opportunities when we're outside And it's, you know, we see the life cycle, we see we can do math with the rocks. You know, we, like my kids, one day, were chopping down these little I guess little dates from like a few date palms we have in the back, and they said we're going to sell these for $8 a piece. And so they told the neighbor kid we're going to sell these for $8 a piece. And the neighbor kid goes well, that sounds like a rip off. You mentioned little n nature and big n nature. Will you break that down for us?

Jena 16:36

Yeah, well, little n nature is the nature that's all around us, in our backyards, the park on your walk to school, the, you know the weeds growing out of the crack in the sidewalk, that's. You know bugs you can find under the rocks nearby. You know outside your house, and so that's little n nature. It's nature that you can access every day. It's all around us. Big n nature would be what you know, a wilderness place. You know the forest behind your house, i would say you know you mentioned in childhood the creek, the river. You know national parks, that sort of thing. So big n nature, where it's predominantly a natural environment, And both are valuable.

Jena 17:20

But oftentimes people think that they're not getting benefit if they aren't out in the big n nature. Right, and this is not true. Little n nature has so much to give us because it is an opportunity to take our shoes off but our feet on the ground, right, and for kids as well. There's, there's so much exchange, the energetic exchange that happens when we do these, this called water, right, there's so much energetic exchange that feeds us and balances us when we're, when we do that, when we put our hands in the soil, when we're gardening. That's a little n nature And that should be part of our daily lives as much as possible, and for our kids it should be their predominant experience. But that's really rare as well, right? So big n nature, that's something that you can strive for with. you know, family vacations or, you know, maybe you take a weekend trip or whatnot but really focus on the value that the, that, the, the nature you have right outside your door can bring you, because it is really tremendous.

Ryann 19:21

I love that point. So even if you live in a city, you can still walk outside and find a green space. You can find the cracks where the weeds are growing.

Jena 19:30

You know, potted herbs and potted veggies and or flowers on your on your deck. If you live in an apartment, you can still find a house plants, open your windows, get the sunlight, all of that and that's. Children truly need as much nature in their lives as possible to really build their nervous system and their and get those sensory experiences.

Ryann 19:52

Yeah, so you mentioned grounding and I.

Ryann 19:55

Something that's fascinating for me is I've been doing like a little experiment just on myself, like how I feel when I'm really consciously like feeling my feet on the ground and I read something or heard something the other day that he's like free floating electrons is it that kind of like energize you from the ground and I'm like whoa, like it's just like it's mind blowing for me and it feels so calming.

Ryann 20:24

So I don't want to use the word grounding again, but it's just, it brings me back to center, it brings me back to the present moment and I'm like, oh, my kids are on to something and they're not even doing it consciously. They just don't put on shoes when they walk out the door because it doesn't feel as good. We're like we have these like conditions in our mind that we've learned that like you walk outside and you put shoes on, and it's like that's not necessarily the case. Will you tell us about because I think this is related the sensory systems that our kids are exercising when they're playing out in little nature or in big end nature? Yeah, absolutely.

Jena 21:05

So I always say there's. we have seven physical sensory systems that help us navigate and thrive in our daily environments.

Exploring the Seven Sensory Systems

Jena 21:15

And so there's the five classic senses right, sight, touch, taste, smell and sound and we are all very familiar with them and you know, you could just think in your mind about different examples about using those senses out in nature and children using those senses out in their backyards or wherever. And so the people don't know as much about our body movement and body awareness senses. and so the the first one is the vestibular system. It's located in our inner ear and it has to do with body awareness in space. so like, are we right side up? are we upside down in our sideways? So, swinging, rocking, spinning, crawling, rolling, all of these are vestibular activities, climbing. And so when kids can really use that, that system and do activities that feed that system, they become more body confident and they become more comfortable doing these big movements and moving their bodies in different ways, which will help them all throughout their lives.

Jena 22:20

And then the the last one is is a really fascinating one. it's called proprioception, or our proprioceptive system, and this, out of the seven, it's the only one that's fully internal. It doesn't require any external information to work, and so this has to do with body awareness as well, so where our limbs are at relative to the rest of us, where our bodies are at relative to the things around us in our environments. And so you've closed your eyes and tried to touch your finger to your nose right.

Ryann 22:56

That's proprioception.

Jena 22:58

So that's how your system knows how to make that connection between where your finger is and where it knows where your nose is.

Jena 23:06

The other thing that proprioception has to do with is the use of force to do an activity, and so the example I always give is I'm thirsty and I have a paper cup of water sitting in front of me, and so it's my proprioceptive system. My brain communicates to my muscles and joints, my tendons, ligaments, all the way down to my fingertips, the use of the, how much pressure or force that I need to pick up that paper cup without squishing it or without letting it slide through my fingers. So it's really interesting. So proprioceptive activities could be using a crayon, using a zipper, tying shoes, picking up a watering can, that pulling that using your muscles and your joints, using a hose, gardening tools, and so it's really fascinating because it's big body movements, gross motor skills, climbing, balancing, things like that, but it's also fine motor skills, and so it's really kind of a system that takes in a lot of variety in order to feed itself. Wow, it's fascinating. It's really fascinating.

Ryann 24:19

So we don't necessarily that's not like our go-to as parents to go like let me let my kids spin.

Ryann 24:28

We've seen videos of our oldest kid and when she was a toddler and she was spinning and we're both, we've grown a lot. My husband and I are both going like, okay, that's enough spinning And we're laughing at each other as we're watching it, because now we understand the concept of the more they do that, the more of embodiment Like they get this sense of being embodied and safe in their body. They feel where their bodies are in relative to their family members, relative to other objects, nature. I think, wow, it's fascinating. So that's also why my toddler won't go outside without like wanting to play with the hose, like every a lot of the times onto the patio he'll want to play with the hose and he could do it for, i mean, hours, i mean, and we think that toddlers have kind of a short attention span, or even kids, but they can go for hours outside. Yeah, how do we start to create these wonderful sensory, rich nature play spaces in our own homes and our own lives?

Jena 25:42

Yeah, Yeah, a lot of times I hear parents they don't feel like they have the right kind of space. Maybe it's not big enough or it's not naturey enough. But it's so easy to start just building a really small area for your child's play and learning. And I always start with what do your kids love to do? You have to start with the kids. You have to make it.

Jena 26:07

The one way to make it an irresistible place is to start with what they love, and so that's going to be different for all kids, right? So, like one of my twins the older one, she loves to make things We started her out with like a mud kitchen area and loose parts. The other twin, she's into her imagination. That's my free spirit. She's got a. She's has a fairy garden that we have accessorized over time and it's pretty phenomenal right now. And so start with what you know that they love to do, whether it's physical activity, imaginative play, reading books, whatever it is and just start brainstorming what you can do to create a space that really emphasizes that and allows their play and learning to flourish in that environment. And so I say it's going to look like something different in every in every backyard. So that's where to start with what they love. And then I have. I have a. If people go onto my website and it's for nature play, i have a free download that really walks people through that first step.

Ryann 27:21

Where can we find that? Will you just drop the link real quick and I'll put it in the show next to Yeah, www, and it's for natureplaycom. Okay, great, and it's for natureplaycom. Okay, great Yeah.

Jena 27:37

And so, again, it can be really simple And one of the a really no brainer place to start is creating a cozy space And that's like a fort or a little garden. Tpe or you know kids always creates like a pillow fort or something blanket for in the living room. There's so many different activities that can happen in a space like that And it's also really good for their sensory stimulation, because cozy spaces help children balance their nervous system. If they're stimulated it's too noisy, if there's too many people around, they can go into a cozy space and regulate their own nervous systems and help bring them back into balance. And so, when you have a space like that, if you're struggling with well, i don't know what my children like I've got multiple children and I don't wanna do a bunch of different things Creating a cozy space is a really great place to start because all kids will find benefit there.

Ryann 29:41

What are like two or three, maybe like cost effective materials that we could just like go out and get to like start playing with.

Jena 29:51

Okay, so the biggest bang for your buck is going to be loose parts Out of nature, like if you wanted to create a loose parts kit. just start collecting them in your excursions. like you're going to the park and you find some leaves, or you go to the beach and you find some stones or shells, or you're out on a hike and you wanna bring some twigs back, or something like that. My kids are always finding stuff they wanna bring back home and use in their garden. We just went rafting this weekend and my older daughter brought this log. It's about a foot long but it was beaver chewed on both sides, and she was really fascinated by it. Well, it's now in the sensory garden as part of her play equipment, right, so you can collect loose parts from nature, from nature yeah.

Ryann 30:36

My first thought was like recycled materials, because those can be loose parts too, but actually like finding things right in your neighborhood would work, yeah.

Jena 30:48

Yeah, and then when you combine them, oh my gosh, the play value and the learning value just is skyrockets. If you've got hands and buckets and scoops and spoons and all of these things combined with feathers and berries and flowers and whatever it is that you can gather, it's really it is about the highest sensory play learning value that you can have, and you can get it for next to nothing. Yeah, I love that. And put the word out to your friends too that you wanna put together a little mud kitchen or put together a little loose parts kit. What do they have that they could contribute? And so it kind of puts a bug in their ear to keep an eye out for you as well. So you don't have to do it all yourself. When you enlist your friends and family, you'll have some really fun things come to you that way.

Ryann 31:36

Yeah, that's a great idea. Now, as far as the cozy space, because I'm trying to envision what that would look like in our yard, right, so we have like some climbing things, we have some swings, so it's not necessarily nature-based, but we have a little area where they can do a mud kitchen. We've got weeds all over the yard where we play with that And I'm trying to think like cozy space-wise, is that like a hammock, like help me envision I?

Jena 32:02

can look a yeah, a lot of different things can be a cozy space, a hammock, a little space carved out in the weeds like smash a bunch of areas down. I mean literally, it's okay to have messy wild spaces in your yard. It's okay Little forts. They can put some branches together like a teepee and wrap a blanket around it.

Jena 32:29

If you've got an outdoor table, drape a blanket across it and it just kind of encapsulates them So it can look like so many different things. We have a couple, we have a well, i just took it down because it's lived its life. We had a garden teepee where I put some stakes in the ground some garden stakes. I painted them fun colors and then I pulled out, i bought some sheets from Goodwill secondhand store And cut them into strips And then I wrapped it around the teepee and made a little door And it was this cute little garden teepee, perfect, and it was pink and it was awesome And it stood out in the landscape And it was awesome. Sensory value visual, sound, vestibular proprioception. So cozy spaces are multi-sensory features for children.

Ryann 33:17

Oh, i'm getting excited. So yeah, looking so many different ways, yeah.

Jena 33:20

I would say hammock is one of my like top favorite things outside. Yeah, me too, For me and for kids.

Ryann 33:27

They'll never get me out of the hammock, I mean. I'll have to get out eventually, but they'll have to battle me for the hammock.

Ryann 33:35

Which actually brings up a good point. You know, I think so one of the things I've been focusing on lately. like you mentioned, your children are so different. I was having a tendency for a bit of time to kind of group everyone together, especially my two older girls. It's like the girls the girl, And I think this is an invitation for me as well. I'm learning, alongside of everybody, to differentiate our children from ourselves and from each other, because they do have different interests, and allowing them to go out in the backyard and see what they each of them goes to or is drawn to. So I think that's a really fascinating point. as it relates to nature And, if we can kind of take a right turn a little bit, I'm really interested in hearing about neurodiversity and how nature is especially important for neurodiverse children. Would you use that statement that it's especially important or it's important for everybody? It's important?

Jena 34:39

for everyone, absolutely, but it's oftentimes I've seen that children with neurodiversities or different abilities they may not get as many opportunities perhaps to get outside and experience nature or the time. I mean I would say that would be across all children. So neurodiversities are children experiencing autism, sensory processing disorder, adhd, and there are studies out there that prove that. Time out in nature

Understanding Neurodiversity and Creating Inclusive Environments

Jena 35:16

for ADHD specifically, this was a study, a couple of studies done for ADHD it can actually lessen some of the symptoms they experience And so it allows them to focus and to be more centered and so that they can learn and interact and connect in more meaningful ways, more deeper ways. And so we're all wired differently And children experiencing neurodiversity are wired to sometimes very dramatically differently than neurotypical folks, and so they see and experience the world in different ways And, like I mentioned, sometimes it's dramatically different ways.

Jena 36:03

And it's in, you know, and that's why I talk about all seven sensory systems, because children with neurodiversities can be hypersensitive or hyposensitive in one or more of their sensory systems at the same time, and so it's really it can be really challenging to create an environment that really supports them in thriving. And so when I, when I so hyper, hypersensitive means that their bodies are getting too much information. Like Temple Grandin she's she experiences autism. She says it's like like visual stimulation, it's like having 100 channels on the TV on at the same time. It's really hard to focus on one, but it's really easy to get overwhelmed and dysregulated because it's just too much coming at you. And so hyposensitive are children whose bodies or sensory systems aren't getting enough information to understand the world around them. So they're constantly seeking out more and more and more information experiences but also greater intensity to feed their systems to the level that they need to understand themselves in the world.

Jena 37:23

And so it can be really challenging to create environments for all children to be together and to really also support children experience in neurodiversity. And so that's why my approach in sensory based environments is really successful, because we can really tailor our environments for the needs of all kids. Because if we have all these different things like mud kitchens and water play and sand play and rolling hills and little you know, maybe edible garden spaces, then all kids can go out and find the sensory stimulation that their bodies are craving. And so it can be really successful. And the goal in my work is inclusion and having all kids playing together and each finding what they need to feed their bodies so that they can go on to connect in the ways that they can the best, the most meaningful, the deepest, that they can play to the greatest extent that their imaginations can can give them, and that they can learn to their greatest potential. And so that's what the sensory based approach is so powerful, because it is literally beneficial for all kids of all abilities and all diversities.

Ryann 38:49

Yeah, Oh, that explanation was absolutely fantastic. I'm starting to explore that one of my children may be neurodivergent and I'm very curious about it And so I'm just really putting on this like observer hat to you know, figure out not even figure anything out just the observer hat like. and then also like being compassionate to, because I think in moments of overwhelm, in moments of like sensory overload, sometimes we have a tendency to look at that as like bad behavior or misbehavior or not listening or et cetera, et cetera, right, but when we can get curious about it and observe, be compassionate and then think like my gosh, how overwhelming must that be? I mean, the explanation of the hundred channels turned out. I mean I started to feel overwhelmed just hearing it right. I think it's a really good opportunity for us to allow our kids to just be who they are, without putting an expectation on them too.

Jena 39:57

Yeah, i totally agree with that, one of the mistakes that we often make and it's not a mistake, it's just we need to come into greater awareness. We assume that everyone experiences the world the same way we do, and so we can pass judgment on a child having a meltdown, because you know why are you having a meltdown? Everything's fine, there's no reason. There's a quote unquote. There's no reason for this. But we literally cannot place ourselves in their shoes as far as their sensory experience of their life, right, and so, like you say, having compassion for the situation, understanding that their experience of their life could be totally different than ours, and we have no way of knowing what that is for them. And so, yeah, being an observer, that's like you know the place to start. It truly is.

Jena 41:02

I'm reading a really fascinating book right now called An Immense World by Ed Young, and it talks about all the different animals and how their sensory systems work, and it gives them a totally different world, essentially because the way their sensory systems work like they might see different colors, they might hear different sounds, and so it's safe to say that kids all kids potentially are experienced in the world very different than you and I, their parents, their teachers, and so, yeah, it's really kind of mind opening when we start to really understand that we have a very limited view of the greater world And everyone has this limited view. And so when we can come together and have compassion for one another and try to understand one another, that's when a lot of magic can happen and a lot of opening up can happen.

Ryann 42:08

And, yeah, a lot of connection. Yeah, a lot of connection. What's your take on kind of the higher incidences now of neurodivergent kids, or do you have like a spiritual reason or a logical reason or just like a belief yourself about that I?

Jena 42:33

have a little bit of both. One yes, it is diagnosed more. Two, i think there are a lot of environmental factors like pollution and chemicals and things like that that can contribute to children who are already sensitive. But the spiritual aspect I think these children are coming in to shake things up. They are coming in to force us into a different way and do a better way, and that is compassion, amongst many other things.

Jena 43:15

And so some of these systems that are out there, that have been in place a long time, like school systems and other things, they are not working for most, if not all, of our kids. And so, with children with neurodiversities, the old way is just not working, it's not going to work and they're rebelling against it. And that's beautiful, it's perfect, it's how it should be done. So we need to be paying attention and we need to be following their lead and we need to be listening and aware and responsive to what they're asking of us. So they're giving us I don't know how the audience will react, but in a lot of ways they're giving us a gift of change.

Ryann 44:06

Well, i don't know how the audience is reacting, but I'm crying, i know, just I. Oh, you just said it so eloquently and I'm so with you And amen to all of it. I mean, i couldn't have said it any better myself. I think that's just beautiful. What an invitation for us to. You know, put our egos as parents aside, because we think you know that we've been here longer and we know better, and it's a really great opportunity for us to learn alongside of our kids. You know, to circle back around in the beginning. We've you and I have both, it sounds like learned so much from becoming parents, from looking at these little sovereign beings who are just that, you know they are, yeah, they are.

Jena 44:57

They're beautiful just as they are, whatever human expression they may have, they are, they're beautiful, they are valued. They are here to do what they're here to do and we need to get out of their way, and they are going to teach us so much in the process and they are going to transform our world into a better place, because the time is now.

Ryann 45:23

Yeah, agreed, and I think this is like this is such a growth moment for us, like you know, the parents in our generation because our kids right now are, like we could call them, like the canaries in the coal mine, right, and it's because of the limited scope of power. I mean they have power, don't get me wrong.

Jena 45:47

Are these?

Ryann 45:47

kids power, but the limited scope of resources time, money, you know, driver's licenses they can't actually create the systematic change or the container that they need to thrive. So this is the invitation parents to create the containers, to create the magical gardens, to go into your school district, to go into your school board, to go into your children's school to talk to the educators, to talk to your neighbors, to build the community gardens. This is it. It is up to us. We are not passively sitting by talking theoretically about how change is coming. No, we are the change agents.

Ryann 46:31

This is a moment for us to stand up and take that action. I got to get off my soapbox now, but you know, it's just. It's so inspiring for me to hear you speak, to see the work you do at home in your professional life, because this is what's going to create the change and the ripple effect And gosh, i'm just, i'm so thankful for you and the work you're doing and everything. As we start to wrap up, i'm curious what you wish, what? what's one thing you wish that more people would ask you about?

Jena 47:07

That is one of the most wonderful questions I've ever been asked and I'm having a really hard time finding an answer. I don't know. I think probably it goes back to one of the questions that you had earlier How can I better support my kids in their development, in their sensory experiences? What can I do outside? What can I do at home? What can I do in their bedroom?

Jena 47:39

Whatever, in my question I create an environment that allows them to truly thrive, because that way, when you start asking those questions, then you start becoming aware of things in their environment that might be obstacles to them thriving or might be bringing them discomfort in some ways, and so when you ask a question like that, then your mind automatically starts paying attention to what might be a solution or an answer within your own environment. So I would say that, because I think the answer could come from me, but more importantly, the answer is going to come from you being more aware of your own environment and more aware of your children's environment and their ability to do all the wonderful things that they are supposed to in childhood. So that's what I've probably kind of been around about answer for you, that's what I would say That's great.

Ryann 48:41

I think that's brilliant because I think there are a lot of little opportunities we can do in our lives for our kids, in their rooms, in our home, like lots and lots of just really, really tiny things that are big to them. My kids have free reign over our calendar, so we write on the calendar and so do they. We make it a space for all of us. And then one of my kids likes a cozy. She calls it her nook, and so we've helped her create a nook. It's just a bunch of stuffed animals and stuff but she's like a little den for her to go into on the inside. So just really little things. We don't have to spend money, we don't have to make a big to do. We can just like shift little things, i think that's great, that's brilliant.

Ryann 49:26

So, as we again start to wrap up, i'm going to ask you the same, the same three questions that I ask everybody at the end of the interviews, and the first one is what's bringing you joy today?

Jena 49:39

Oh, what's bringing me joy? Well, speaking here with you, ryan, it's been. that's been really awesome. After that, i get to go work and work on a design for outdoor classroom for a local alternative high school. So that's always fun. So, yeah, and, of course, time with my kids. I love that.

Ryann 49:57

That's awesome. Where can we find and follow your work aside from your website? Do you? are you on social?

Jena 50:02

media. Yes, i am, so I'm on Facebook and Instagram and is for nature play, so you can search for that, and then I'd also invite you and your audience to join. I have a fairly new private Facebook group called sensory rich nature play, and so if you search for groups, that's where kind of all the activities happening with you know different videos and talking about plants, and you know pretty much everything sensory rich nature play It's all happening right there.

Ryann 50:30

Amazing. We will link all of this in the show notes. That's awesome. I'm going to jump in there too, as much as anything like specifically tailored to me on Facebook. I will take. Like you know, it's like you got to jump in the groups that you want to see more of, So that's a great exactly.

Jena 50:49

Yeah, yeah, all right, i mentioned one book, but what are you reading right now, if anything, I know you're reading something, but yeah, i always have like five books going at one time Me too. So yeah, i'm getting through Ed Young's book. I'm actually reading a book on hiking the Camino. This has nothing to do with children. So the Camino, the walk in Spain, and then I am reading. What am I reading? The oh the latest Wild and Free book.

Ryann 51:26

Oh yeah, by Ainsley right.

Jena 51:28

Yeah, good, i just got into that.

Ryann 51:31

Is okay, i'll have to put that on my list too. I read her first one, which I really enjoyed. I'll have to put that on

Learning From Winners in Life

Ryann 51:37

the list, thank you, yeah, and then what's my last question? Oh yeah, who are what? I think I know the answer, but who or what have you learned the most from?

Jena 51:47

Oh yeah, without a doubt, it's the winners. I mean, every day, from the beginning of their beginning, it's just been a whole new experience, But like a new chapter in my life. That doesn't even begin to describe. It's just. It's so different from going before kids to having kids, and for the better, so I would absolutely say them.

Ryann 52:13

Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much again for being here and for bringing your wisdom and all that you shared with us. I'm so, so grateful.

Jena 52:22

Thank you for having me, ryan, i so appreciate it.