Connection Over Control: Ending Power Struggles with Your Kids

If you're raising a defiant child, you know the day-to-day struggle. Even amongst the best circumstances, motherhood can be purely exhausting . Ginny Luther is joining us today to tell us what conscious discipline is, how we need to show up for ourselves before we respond to our kids, and the many ways our children invite us to grow and learn from our continued missteps.

When Ginny's defiant child, Bart, tested her in ways she never imagined she began a journey of self-discovery which led her to becoming a  Conscious Discipline Master Instructor. Today, she's sharing her story and talking to us about her exceptional new book, Blue Star Grit:  A Mother’s Journey of Triumph and Tragedy Raising a Defiant Child into an Exceptional Leader.

(As always, these conversations are not for kiddos—make sure you've got your earbuds in or listen when your child-free)

RESOURCES, LINKS & QUOTES: 

“Discipline isn’t something we do to children. Discipline is something we help them to develop in themselves.” —Ginny Luther 

“Conscious discipline comes from understanding a brain model about how we develop regulation.”—Ginny Luther 

“When you manage yourself you can help manage your children.” —Ginny Luther

Learn More About Conscious Discipline here. 

⭐️🦋!!!!!Pre-Order Blue Star Grit here!!!!!! ⭐️🦋

Learn more about Ginny Luther and her impactful work here. 

Ginny’s Book List 

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind 

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Ryann Watkin: Welcome back to the raising wild hearts. Podcast I'm. Thrilled and honored and excited. Today we're gonna be talking about

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Ryann Watkin: One of my favorite topics which is discipline, conscious discipline, raising a strong willed child. And maybe some of you can relate to this, because I know some of you have strong willed children as do I, at least one out of the 3, the jury still out on the other. But I mean you know it. There's time yet.

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Ryann Watkin: And so I think it's really important, because one of the things that I always think about is the root of the word discipline, and I think that our culture is kind of trained, and it's inculturated to think that it's punishment or consequences. But the root of the word discipline is disciple, which means

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Ryann Watkin: to guide, to teach disciple is students. So you know I just. I think this is a beautiful way to talk about this topic with a beautiful human who has just written a book, and I just can't wait to tell you guys about it. And for her to tell you guys about it. So with no further ado.

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Ryann Watkin: Ginny Luther is a dynamic international speaker for parents and educational professionals.  She's a Conscious Discipline Master Instructor and She pulls her vast life experience, presenting with Charisma enthusiasm and compassion, her tremendous knowledge provides creative solutions to difficult issues, facing schools and families today.

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giving audiences the tools necessary to succeed

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Ryann Watkin: in semi retirement. Ginny maintains her focus to her local communities, using her expertise and commitment to empower adult child relationships. She uses conflict as an opportunity for growth during her enthusiastic workshops. Jenny also serves as a as a Consultant, a CBT. Life Coach.


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Ryann Watkin: parent, teacher, coach, and a support group leader for school districts, parents, communities, corporate organizations, associations, clubs, and summer camps.

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Ryann Watkin: She is also co-founder of Barts Blue Star nonprofit foundation, which supports funding opportunities for people on the front lines with children to receive conscious discipline, training, and coaching.

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I met Jenny at one of her workshops. She was so gracious to grace us with her presence at one of the home school co-ops that my daughters went to a couple of years ago, and I can say from first hand experience

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Ryann Watkin: it's an experience. It's a

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Ryann Watkin: you know. I just remember feeling so connected and so seen and heard. And that's what we're trying to do for our kids.

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Ryann Watkin: And so we. you know. I think of this like parent figure almost that is like I see you. I hear you, and you just know everything safe, and that's really how I felt, and I, you know, if if I could speak for the other moms in the session, I know that that's how they felt, too. And so it's with great honor and excitement that I welcome you to the podcast today, Jenny.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, thank you for having me on. I feel honored.

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Ryann Watkin: Yeah, thank you so much. So.

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Ryann Watkin: as I mentioned in the Intro. The way we think about discipline in our society is a little backwards, but some of us don't even know that it's backwards what is going on there?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, most people do what they were taught.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So if you were exposed as a child trying to express your distress, which is what we do through a motion motion, is the vehicle for us.

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really expressing our distress.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and we go to the people that soothe us, which is our parents. They've always been the soothers in our lives, and if you get punished for that.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: or more often, somebody in throws imposed guilt on you. Look how you make your mother feeling when you act that way, because when you think about children's behavior, an upset state is usually a state. Most of us adults resist in children. We resist it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So when you resist it's number one gonna persist. But aside from that. your first sense is to try to control it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and so to control it. Traditionally, we've been using punitive approaches to discipline which says I can control you.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and the the conscious discipline perspective is.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I can't control you. The only person I can make changes myself. The only person I can control is my own response to my child's upset

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Ryann Watkin: right? So for those of us who might not be familiar with conscious discipline in a nutshell. What's the foundation of it? What is it for? Who is it For

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it's for everyone but the difference. But it's a social emotional learning program. We Dr. Bailey Doesn't really like to refer to it as a program in my I myself. It's really more a way of being because the difference between conscious discipline and most other social emotional learning programs

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is that it starts with the adult first.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So discipline essentially isn't something we do to children.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Discipline is something that we help them to develop in themselves.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that's a very different perspective. Because if i'm going to help somebody manage their emotional state

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and have them take total responsibility for it. I have to be in a space with that person, whether it's a spouse or a child, or any one. He anyone that you're within a moment.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I have to be willing to be open and see what's going on for that person versus trying to defend myself

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and the the the difference also with conscious of plan, is that all of it comes interestingly enough

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: from understanding a brain model of how we actually develop regulation, and how children develop regulation.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And we know that the traditional responses that we have that are controlling

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: What that does to children? Is it stops the actual integration of self-regulation.

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self-regulation doesn't actually wire be completely wired up in your brain to be accessed immediately until you're 25. So that's a big deal.

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Ryann Watkin: That's a huge deal. I mean, we are constantly remind ourselves that don't we, as apparently because when a 2 year old is upset and a 4 year old is upset, and we think that they should be responding like an adult.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: or acting better than we are in the moment we expect them to act better than we are do. That's just crazy.

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Ryann Watkin: Right? So it's not something that we even do. It's something that we are. Is that a a proper way to think about it?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I would say so. And that's a process, and it's

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: because changing yourself and change your response. The basic thing I tell the parents is your response has an impact on your child. It has an impact on anybody. You walk in a room.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and your behavior, your thoughts, how you're responding to your thoughts, thoughts, and your your actions and your feelings are all going to dictate

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: an energy to the person that's receiving you.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Does that make sense? And so, if that energy

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: is resistant. then you're going to be defending.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you're going down to the lower centers of your brain for response versus the higher, more intellectual and problem-solving parts of your brain.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so then you you walk out, saying, I can't handle this person.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and I don't want this person to be my friend anymore, or this child's going to go to their room, and until they can figure it out.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I am not going to tolerate their behavior.

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Ryann Watkin: That makes sense. Yeah, I want Yup, it's a big deal in order for this to work for you. It starts with you. It starts with your responses because they have an impact on how your child's going to respond.

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Ryann Watkin: and I think that's both the good news and the bad news. Yeah, I it's really tricky to unravel a lot of the things that we've been living with for decades.

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Ryann Watkin: Personally, I just turned 40, and I think that my work really started at 30. So I've been a decade in so far, and i'm like man. This is not for the the faint of heart. This is not for the weary, but i'm here for it. It's a it's a journey i'm here for it, though

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, the decades are interesting because I think 40 is a real, is a is a the third major developmental stage in your life. When you are focused on

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: who you really are, and who you want to be, and what your life is. You do a lot of self evaluation, so pretty egocentric stage, but not in a bad way. It it's in like. Why am I here?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That question comes: what what is my real purpose? I've been proving myself and making the money, and I've got the children. And now what

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it kind of what happened.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so that's a third stage. The other 2 stages are 2 year olds

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and teams.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and those are huge stages for self actualization.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So your children are going to be defined in those stages. They're required to be defiant in those stages. and so I always see good leaders. you know, as in my book and Blue Star Grit.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know I raised an exceptional leader, but his leadership was chosen by himself. By the way, I guided him versus tried to control him

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Ryann Watkin: right. And I want to go back to, if we can, the wooden spoon moment that you talk about in your book, because I think that's a pivotal moment where we, as parents, and we may have many of them right where we have a choice. Do we act like a lunatic, or scream, or shout, or do we

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Ryann Watkin: take the higher path and take a step back, or take the elevator up, or whatever, and choose differently. So take us back to the wooden spoon moment. And what clicked for you? How did you know like this is it? I'm done

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: well that I was mostly unconscious, like I saw I would have you ever watched yourself act stupid right? So it was a moment I was watching myself. Act stupid. I was resisting myself, but I couldn't help myself, and i'm sure I was imitating some of what my parents did.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but I Bart was turning on. Oh, he's 2, and he's very. He was very precocious, I mean extremely precocious.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and and also sort of street smart, you know he just would always wiggle and wiggle through things, and he always had the upper hand. It felt like that all the time as a single parent.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and it was just one of those days I came home so my, because I was stressed

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I didn't have the resilience in that moment when you're really stressed. It's hard to be resilient and calm yourself. And he was turning this lamp on and off and on and off, and I and I took everything off the tables, but I couldn't take the lamps off the tables, and he was just.

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He was trying to get my attention. He was trying to connect with me, but at the time I didn't see it that way

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I was stressed, and I thought he's doing this to me again. I have had it, and so there I go, watching myself like stupid march into the kitchen. I grab the wooden spoon. I go out there. I get 2 2 inches from his face, and I say to him, if you don't stop.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: this is gonna go on your bottom.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know, and in my most out of control moment.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and I was scared in the moment I really was. I was scared because I was afraid I was going to use it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That was was scary for me being the professional that I am working in a psychiatric center, I should have known better.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So what does he do? In response to that he pulls his pants down, turns around it goes, Save me money! Spank me!

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: He's taunting me. and in that moment

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I that was epiphany for me, because I I knew at that moment

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I was lost, completely control I had lost, and I didn't know how to get it back. I just did not know how to get it back, and his whole life went through my just. My face must have turned ashen.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and I stopped. I paused. I I I was watching the film of his life go in front of me and it. He was a serial killer. By the time he was 16 I thought I don't have control any. He's totally controlling this house.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and the Epiphany came when I just passed. I just paused, and I sat there for a minute, and I just there's got to be more to this. There's got to be more. There has to be another way. There, there's got to be more to this.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that was a moment that I said, maybe this is just not about him.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It just it wasn't just about him. I mean he was there, but it wasn't just about him, and I didn't know honestly what direction to go in. I didn't. It was just the epiphany that I knew there had to be a better way. I just didn't know what it was.

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Ryann Watkin: So the first step for so many things is just that awareness, and it sounds like in that wooden spoon moment you really became aware you saw yourself acting out of control. It scared you. You felt that fear. And you said, I don't want to feel this anymore. I have to take accountability. So

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Ryann Watkin: at what point did you find conscious discipline like? Where did you find that journey? How old was Bart? How old was Nick like, Where were you at in your journey when you finally started to really implement some of the powerful self actualization?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, that didn't happen for a few years later, as you read my as as you read Bart's Blue Star, you'll just many stories where I completely lose it, and i'm getting so tired and frustrated with myself right it wasn't until I got divorced and moved to Florida and with my new husband jack

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: current husband, who's 33 years we've been married.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and we came to Florida, and Bart was 6. Nick was 8 and 2 step children, John 10, and Christy was 15, and when we came Here

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: was when I was approached by somebody who was doing another program called Redirecting Children's behavior, and she asked me if I guinea pig her class, and so I did, and that was the beginning of it like Yes, see.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it's not just him. It's me, too. And so I knew

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: that it was going to be a journey.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and it was then that I took the the bull by the horns and said, okay, Jenny, if you're if you're really going to do this. You've got to start teaching it yourself. I did not meet Becky until

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Bart, I think, was 14.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Wow, yeah, I didn't start conscious this

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: technically conscious discipline. But I have been doing a lot of work in relationship with what the Epiphany was was about my relationship, and it was about my relationship in this moment in that wooden spoon moment here was wicked which of the West face for a 2 year old, looking at him.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and he must have been so frightened, and how Bart dealt with fear was. He just made a game out of it? That's what he did. He was like. Come on. and I didn't know any of that then, and it but it wasn't until

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I actually learned about all that that I go. Oh, that's what was going on.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know that's what was happening for me. So he didn't get like

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: conscious discipline until he was like 14. But he got a lot of other redirecting children's behavior relationship based family meetings. more of the

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: connection piece moving from control to connection. And that's what that. What? That's what we'll start. The the Blue Star Grid is all about, is moving my

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: stuckness and entrapment and control, and freeing myself from that

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: to connection, and in learning how to connect more with him. I was connecting more with myself.

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Ryann Watkin: Yeah. throughout the book. I really felt like I got to know you, of course, so much, and Bart so much, and I just

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Ryann Watkin: he's just he's so funny, and what? And you're so funny! And one of the stories that I just was laughing out loud was the story about George. Will you tell us about George?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Yeah, that was another time when he was small now as a single parent, and if anybody is listening as a single parent.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You, and only you know how lonely that can be as a parent.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's not a and I. There are many also people out there who's partners or spouses? You know they they travel a lot, so that feels like that You're alone. There's a good side of it. The good side of it is that you don't have to negotiate decisions about how you're going to discipline your children.

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You do it. You're consistent. You're there. The bad news is, you never get a break.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: never!

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so I was working with preschool, really challenging, emotionally challenging the most emotionally and physically of you know, emotional abuse and physical abuse, the most challenged 3 and 4 year olds in this county in upstate New York on this interdisciplinary team. So if anybody should have known

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: how to manage children at the time the traditional approaches I was using. It was me.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know. I'm the one that should have

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: had them at most together.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: But I come home after a day of that work, and I would be here would be preschoolers in my face, and I was like, Can I just get a break.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It was

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: so hard for me I just wanted 10 min. I just wanted them to be quiet, shut up, be quiet, so I could get 10 min to myself.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and so there was. One day I came home, and it was one of those

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: moments. Mommy, mommy, mommy, can we watch Grant Gremlin's mommy. Can we go to be's, mommy? Can I have a cookie? I mean mommy, 90 money is. I'm trying to get in the door with a couple of bags of groceries in there, mommy 99, and I just lost it, you know it was one of those moments, and I said, that's it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That is it. I am not your mother anymore. From now on in I'm George, that's me, George and I stomped up the stairs.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I went into my bedroom. I slammed the door. I didn't even close the door. I slammed it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It was a good no, not your mother any more kind of thing. Not realizing the impact it was having on them.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so i'm just crying in my room. I'm just like so depleted and so victim and and I hear this pitter pattern up the stairs, and here's Nick Nick, the good boy, you know he's my first born, and he's going. Mommy.

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mommy, you have to be my mommy. You have to be me. You can not be my mommy. You gotta be my mommy, and he's like

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I worry about him more now. So. Anyway, he's by the door going mommy, and then pitter powder pitter patterns up the stairs.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Bart has a little binky in his mouth, and you know I could hear him. He starts pounding on the door. He puts his pinky to his side, and he goes, George. get out here. We need you now.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and it was just I went from crying into hysterical laughter. I was just the funniest moment, and I almost p to my pants, and I opened up more, and we hugged each other, and I knew from that moment we were going to be fine. But it was.

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Ryann Watkin: It was another moment. I will never ever forget. Yeah, it's a trip. I just that that I left out loud reading that the other night. I just told my husband, and of course I re it to him, and we were laughing together. It was really fun.

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Ryann Watkin: So you say, in your book the struggle of raising a defiant child becomes personal growth. When we recognize that examining the life of a child we birthed and raised affords us the opportunity to examine our own life, and with any luck heal our own wounds. Thus our children become our therapists.

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That is just one of so many quotes in this book. Blue starred, that is, are just so impactful, and spoke directly to my heart

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Ryann Watkin: out of so many things. One thing that this book was about for me was healing intergenerational trauma. You took us on this marvelous journey about your mother's childhood and her struggles that she faced, and your childhood and

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Ryann Watkin: it it's just amazing to see generationally what happens in families, and probably all families right. We all have stories like this, and so many of them get brushed under the rug, and you courageously stood up. And you said, Nope, Not this time. I'm: I'm gonna write about this. I'm gonna talk about this, and i'm gonna heal this. How is that process healing that that trauma from your your

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Ryann Watkin: lines of you know your from your history.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, it's interesting, because you know, as you grow older you get like, I said in the beginning of that preface. What you are reading from.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You know, somebody said Don't, write a book until you're 60, because then you'll know really what to say.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that was that became very true, because you become so introspective at that age you stop worrying about stupid stuff and really

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: get introspective. But but the bottom line is that it? Part of what I was revealing in the book was the difference between how I managed the first blind side

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: compared to the second blind side, and it was that I handled the the second blind side, which was, of course, Bart's death

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: much better than I had with the first blind, side.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that all was. I think, this process of being able to know that in relationships you co-regulate with each other you

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and you can get from, or you can resist. You can either connect with a person you're always in choice of connection or

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or control, though those are your 2 choices, and the cost of control is always connection, always connection.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so the healing process for me really took a lot of time. But writing cathartically and putting it all back together.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: was really, I can't really even describe

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the process, because it it's in the writing of the process where you're connecting with yourself so deeply. In fact, a lot of the book I wrote in third person before I actually did it in first person.

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because that was the only way I could see myself

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: was to not be so in the emotional.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: But, as I've learned in conscious discipline and taught, you know, Becky and I started together.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It was just 2 of us in in the country that was teaching it. The more I taught it, the more I was, the more you teach it to you, the children, the more you heal it in yourself, and that

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: that's why so much of this program, which is different. It's. It's about paying it forward. It's about offering to others what you want to experience in yourself, and when you offer it to other people.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Tada suddenly it starts healing in your own self. That's powerful, you know. That's just so powerful.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and there's moments I do it better than others. Believe me, I am not conscious all the time. Just put me in a car in traffic in Miami, and you're going to see a really different person.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, you're really spunky in the book, Jenny. I mean you. You've got some spunk. So I I believe that. Oh, my yeah, yeah, there is fun from the from the first few words. It's funky. But

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: yeah, it's just being conscious of it. So the more I let go of control, the more aware I became.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: which meant that I had to forgive myself, or

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: shift my judgment of myself to acceptance. So, instead of saying I should be going to the blah blah blah.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I was saying I could.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but i'm not choosing to do that right now. I'm choosing to do this now i'm in a position to decide. Do I want to continue to what I've chosen? Or do I want to change what I'm doing as opposed to? I should be home doing this, so I should be doing that. I should have done it this way. I need to do this. I gotta do that.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: All of that is inner speech that, says I, don't have control. I'm not in charge of my choices.

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Ryann Watkin: So it's the difference between being a victim and powerless versus feeling empowered, knowing that you have choices at any given moment

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: correct. So somebody wrote to me today. I'm reading your book, and oh, my gosh! You went through so much, so much pain, and I feel your pain. And I said, I want you to feel inspired, not pain, I said, because I was victimized. There's no question

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but I didn't choose to be a victim.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That's right, you know that was the difference. You every everyone gets victimized right, but you don't have to choose to be a victim. You can choose to say. This happened to me.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And what am I going to do with it

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: in a way that heals, not voiding, distracting, drinking it away.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: busying yourself too much away. exercising it away.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Do you know what I'm saying? Really embracing it, embracing it because, you know, grief is

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's not something to be afraid of? It's intense.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but it is not going to kill you. It just isn't.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: unless you think that it can.

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Ryann Watkin: I'm so glad you brought that up, because so one of my definitions of codependence. This is not like a formal medical like, you know. This is just. My definition is jumping into somebody else's story.

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Ryann Watkin: So when I was reading your story. It was emotionally very powerful, I cried. I laughed. I felt that

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gut-wrenching feeling when you learned of your son's murder when you read the 911 transcript. There are all these moments.

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Ryann Watkin: and I had to step back and go. This is not my story like this, you know, like I had to come up for air right? So it's like essentially we need to.

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Ryann Watkin: This is an invitation for us to kind of train ourselves to not be jumping into the story to not feel your pain, to not feel our kids pain, but to realize that we are projecting our own insecurities, fear, grief and sadness onto somebody else or onto a story.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So can you break that down for us a little bit? Because I think this is so relevant in every relationship we have in our in our lives.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Most you know what people said to me all the time was. I can't imagine now what that says to me all the time is

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I can't imagine, says it's about me like it's sympathy. So there's something to be said for sympathy, because sympathy is showing that you care. So people express that by saying.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, I know exactly what that's like. You know what happened to me right, or I can't imagine, because I know I couldn't handle that right. So that's more about me, the person.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And then they project that pain, so they don't want that pain, so they they resist that pain and say those things versus empathy. So sympathy is an immature

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and really kind of an immature.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: a part of empathy. Okay, so it's empathy. That's very immature.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Empathy says I can feel your pain. and I feel your pain, but I don't have to take it on right. I can offer you

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the best.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the best vision for yourself, the best wellness, the prayer I can offer that to you, knowing that's enough.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Right?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So a lot of people said to me, I don't, you know, like I got. Oh, you know, through all those the tragedies that I went through

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: there was a very different experience as a team versus the experience, as you know, as an adult with Bar. But

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the same things would happen to me. People would come to me if they knew me. they saw me, and they would

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: literally turn around and walk the other way. because

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: they didn't know what to say. They clearly didn't know what to say, and they didn't think they were going to handle it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Then there were the people who would say, do the immature sympathy, so it the immature sympathy would be. Let me tell you about my story, because i'm trying to connect with you. That's the intention i'm trying to connect with you. But that doesn't really help the person who's feeling the real pain.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: What helps the person

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: is to see the best in them. Just be energetically there for them. In fact, the people that were the most powerful to me and helping me heal. The first thing I did was when I found out was to write an email and say to everybody, please do not see me as a victim.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Wish me well because I don't have it in myself right now, and if you do it for me, then we're all in this together, and you are going to help me immensely.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that's what Becky Bailey. Did she spread it everywhere, and blah blah blah people, you know, planted trees and did all kinds of things in honor of Bart, and what I was going through. But

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the best, the most powerful people just would come in and sit next to me

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: right. They would just sit next to me. Say, i'm here for you in any way you want me. I'm here for you

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Ryann Watkin: on their part it's an intention.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: The intention was. you're gonna handle this.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That's the intention. So that's the best thing you can say to your your children when they're upset.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: No, you don't get the cookie. The limit is still there. It's still there. You don't change the limit. and it's hard. It's hard to wait, but you can do it. I know you can. You can do it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and you can have a cookie after your dinner or before your back.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but you can handle it

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: then, you see, as opposed to now, you're okay. You're okay. You're don't. You remember you had a cookie earlier, and we don't eat cookies before dinner, because that's not healthy for you, and mommy's job is to keep you safe, and we want you to be help. You hear all that. Yeah.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it's the difference between presence and just being in our own heads going. Look at the like, like almost like manic. I can't think of a better word, but it's an attempt to actually call the child because we get we we co-regulate. Remember right? So we co-regulate. They're upset. Triggers are upset.

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Ryann Watkin: It's supposed to do that. So that we can be the higher person and call them help them to calm themselves.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: But if we jump into there.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: say it, you know their sandbox. We're going to be throwing sand at each other. Yeah, so so it's. What's important is.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: your response has a huge impact, and if your energy sees the best in a child in any moment, no matter what they've done, if you see the best it doesn't mean they get away with anything, and that there's not limits or any of that. But if you see them

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: as making a mistake versus a little he, and that's driving you nuts.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: There's a very different energy to both of those and that's. That's the power of love. There are 7 skills and 7 powers and conscious discipline. And if you want more about that, go to the conscious discipline.com website, there is so much there.

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Ryann Watkin: Yeah, it's a beautiful and awful resource. Yeah, the real nice resource.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: But but bottom line is that that's the power of love and the power of love

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: says. you know. to see the best

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: in in the worst, even some of the worst behaviors. So so in the book I don't know if you remember me, and how I talked about Jodi Bart's.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Oh, yeah.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: in in in Blue Star. Great that? Yes, the man who murdered your son right?

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Ryann Watkin: And you you did not name him. You know your husband, Jack said. Well, who are you mad at? And you said i'm not at the army, and i'm not at that to done. I'm not a but he wasn't one of the people that came to your mind because

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Ryann Watkin: you saw in your mind him being this boy who didn't have that presence, and didn't have that connection most likely with a love and caregiver, or maybe not even an educator. I mean

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Ryann Watkin: this is a real fear for us as parents. I think that you bring up something so palpable in our unconscious minds of

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Ryann Watkin: Who will our kids be? What will our kids be. Will they thrive? Are we doing a good enough job? Is this a reflection of me? And we

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Ryann Watkin: you take all that, and you show how to get through that entire journey like from start to finish. It's just

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Ryann Watkin: It's amazing.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: No?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, thank you. I haven't heard that perspective yet, but a lot of people are getting a lot of things from it. They can, you know. They read it, and then they kind of go. I can't even talk about it right now. I have to process it. And somebody said the other. Yesterday she goes. I'm gonna read it. I'm read it 3 or 4 times.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Okay, but it's it's it's told mostly through stories. And I think that's the most powerful way to teach is there's stories.

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But yeah, I think

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: when we worry when we see that our children are a reflection of us. Then that's when you lose, start losing your personal power, and your children do, too, because what your children feel is guilt.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: because when it doesn't go the way you want it to go they feel guilty

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: that you feel bad. They feel responsible for the way you feel, and I think one of the hardest. We do so much. We sacrifice so much of ourselves to have a child, to raise a child, to to do all that, and we put all that effort into doing it. So we should get something out of it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: right?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget

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Ryann Watkin: they were they, you know they chose to come to this planet. They chose to be here, and they chose you to be the parent in a very unconscious way, but they have little souls with their own agendas of what they're going to come here for. And so, if you project

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: too much of what you think it should be, which is what's really your need like, I mean for me, what I used to project is oh, they're gonna live in my town. They're not going to live right next to me, because that would be too close. They would want me all the time. No, they're gonna live like a few miles away, and I can babysit, and they can drop the kids off. And all this can happen.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And the truth is.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you're going to be sorely disappointed because they have their own life. That may happen, but it also very likely won't

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: right. They're just on loan. They're not even like ours like. I think we're like our kids. We all did, but they're they're their own little souls and human beings who that's why I think there are therapists because they come here. You know the one thing I said in the book that I that I love is, we help. We help grow each other up.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know Bart and I help grow each other up. and if you. if you kind of see it that way, then you know, what can I learn from his upset. What can I learn from?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You know resistance because children are supposed to resist when they're twos and teens, they're going to resist, because they have a sense of I,

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that sense of I has to come out in a resistant way, because that's how you compare yourself. That's how you compare to be Sh, to find your uniqueness.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: your uniqueness comes from

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: judging others compared to you. So you're going to do that. But your uniqueness, what's that uniqueness. And how can your uniqueness come out? Is

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they have to express it lots of different ways to say that's not the way I want it to go.

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Ryann Watkin: Think of how boring the world would be if kids were always just completely good all the time you ever seen the movie of Stepford wives? No.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it's an old one that just kind of ages. Me a little. But yeah, it's it's a

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's a it's a move. Everybody's the same right. Yeah, the the wives are all robots, you know. Right, and they're They're perfect wife, and they have the perfect amount of sex, and they have the perfect number of children into the perfect, and the kids are the perfect and everybody's perfect. And the dad is the white power.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: making the money ruling the world. Certain little sort of like handmates.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: but not on the dark side. It's dark in its own right, but it's it's. That sort of

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: the world would be so really boring. If we didn't have the uniqueness and differences in the world that we had, Everybody's different. We're not born equal. We're born different.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Right? Just have the right to pursue our happiness and liberty and freedom.

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Ryann Watkin: right

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Ryann Watkin: and such from a young age, I mean, probably, what, from the age of 2, we're really there to support our children in their individuation process. This Isn't like training them to be who we think they should be. This is

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Ryann Watkin: under them like supporting them in like having their roots and wings. You had that quote in the book you had so many great quotes in the book, starting each chapter. I loved that i'm a quote I'm. A quote girl. But you know we really are there to support and to just

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Ryann Watkin: guide. Yes, the guiding. But that but a lot of people mistake that for giving up limits and boundaries. And that's where

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That's the tightrope.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: because a boundary is firm, you know

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: a boundary says this is what's going to happen, and I expect you. I expect that this is going to happen from you, and and kids need that for safety to know boundaries. They have to know boundaries, boundaries help us to to make choices about who we want to be.

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Ryann Watkin: and how we want to belong in a way that's helpful and safe and connected.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And if we don't have boundaries.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: then it's chaos.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and I see a lot of people sort of mistake that

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: guidance, for

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know they mistake the guidance for oh, now I can just say, okay, you want another chance. You get another chance, all right, one cookie. because I know you feel upset. So I understand. No, that's not what this is. It's not that at all.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That's, and I've been fighting that for years, so I talk about that a lot

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: when i'm speaking. doing, speaking engagements and stuff about how important it is that we have the boundaries for kids

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: that's not control. That's providing guidance with safety.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Right? We want guidance with safety

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and connection.

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Ryann Watkin: I think it's important for us to learn how to tap into our authoritative voice, our firm, loving, gentle voice. We're not trigger, we're not angry. We're not judging. We're not controlling. We're saying.

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Ryann Watkin: This is the limit.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and I love you, and this might be hard for you. But this is still the limit, right. It's in your tone. A lot of it's in your tone of voice. So it's not. It's just kind of a matter of fact.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So sometimes I tell people, if you really want to set a boundary, just say some facts to yourself.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's sunny outside. There's a fan above my head. I have a rug on the floor. It's time to go to bed.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: That's right. It's just it's just what it is. It is

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it's it's not like in your mind. If you're going. Oh, God! Okay, it's time for bet. Okay, how am I going to do this. I'm: I'm going to be a sort of okay. I hope they follow the trick you've already set yourself up because the tone is going to come out as asking, Versus Are you ready for bed, honey? No, they're going to tell you. No.

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Ryann Watkin: of course, that that part is going to tell you. No.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I would, but I don't want to

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: right so.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and then I would re he'd say that to me say I would, but I don't want to, or he'd say, are you asking, Are you telling me

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: which was great? Yeah, As I said, i'm trying to be polite. But really i'm not telling you what what i'm expecting of you right now. So

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: take out the garbage now. It's time to take out the garbage time to go to bed. Yeah, I was, I think, a good example for this. I was unpacking a vacuum just the other day, and i'm like.

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Ryann Watkin: you know, all the little boxes and little pieces and bubble wrap that come out of these boxes. I mean, this is like better than Christmas in our house, so my kids are starting to build with it, and i'm unpacking the vacuum. And I'm going in my head

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Ryann Watkin: like, Hmm. I think this ducks Dust cup is too small. And

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Hmm! Where are we going to put that? I don't really know if I want this vacuum to? And i'm in my own mind like, do I want this vacuum, or do I not want this vacuum? Is this a keeper? Or do I take this back to the store, and they're just like shredding all this interior stuff. And so i'm saying as i'm in my own head, debating, keeping this vacuum

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Ryann Watkin: guys, you know i'm not quite sure if i'm gonna keep it. So I you know I think the best thing is, if you just like, put all this stuff over there. No, they didn't put all this stuff over there. They just kept playing with it. One of them is on top of the table now, the coffee table stepping into the big box. And so I I went like, okay, time to set a boundary.

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Ryann Watkin: I don't know if i'm going to be keeping this vacuum. The box needs to go over there by the wall.

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Ryann Watkin: Okay, you know. And so when you're in this place in your mind and you're not present, I think, for me it comes down to presence. So you know, we think of a we can think of our own thing like, what is it for you? For me? It's like really presence

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Ryann Watkin: connection you've mentioned so many times like, you know, leading with something that will, you know, Trigger, you to say like, oh, okay, here it's time for me to be assertive right now, and you know, I must say I've been practicing this work conscious discipline and you know.

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Ryann Watkin: connected parenting for I would say about a good five-ish years now, and

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Ryann Watkin: it's really messy in the beginning. And still even 5 years in it's a little messy and when we mess up, we have the opportunity to repair, and it's not going to be perfect. And basically just start now, it's not too late. Just start.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's a journey, not a destination. That's right.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Yeah, it really is.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you know I there, there's I don't know. I think, a few avatars that maybe achieved it. But i'm even then Buddha was pissed sometimes, and so was Jesus. You know I mean it's it's not about

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: being this perfect only person all the time when chaos is going around you, it's about managing the motion around it.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and that's when you manage yourself.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You can help manage children that's the bottom line. You cannot help manage a child

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: if you're out of control or you're anxious, or you're angry, or you any of an upset state comes to you. So you've got to manage yourself first before you ever approach a child, child, and what I heard you say

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I it is that you know I had to wait. Stop! For a minute. Right pause. That's self-regulation. Self-regulation requires you to pause and go. Wait a minute.

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Ryann Watkin: This isn't working I suppose you're driving me nuts which has happened before in the past, and probably will happen again if I'm honest, I mean really like it. It's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, I mean, look at some of the stories and and booster.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: They're amazing. They're so good, and you're so vulnerable and sharing like what we all are thinking and feeling guilty about. I mean, Mom, guilt is a real thing. I mean, it's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's also the cancer. It's what'll kill you. Yeah.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: it just it's gonna kill you because you can't. You can't please all the people all the time, and the only person you can really take care of is yourself. And so, when you believe that you're responsible for the way other people feel.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Then you you you

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you've chosen the relationship because now you have to be a certain way in order for them to like you. That's disempowering.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You put them in charge of you if you feel responsible for the way someone else feels. So. If if you say to a child, you're making me mad.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: You've just told that child. They're responsible for the way you feel

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: that's big

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Ryann Watkin: that's big. That's big. And those children grow up

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Ryann Watkin: codependent or addictions, or you know it'll lead to to addiction it'll lead to to addiction

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Ryann Watkin: right? Right? So I think the invitation here as we start to wrap up the invitation is really like. What's your wooden spoon moment like? What's your moment

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Ryann Watkin: to become aware that you want to do things a little bit differently, and then getting the support to do that, there are so many free resources out there. Get this book! Oh, my gosh! This is such a journey. Where can we get your book? Actually, Jenny.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: you can get it on Amazon Apple books and Barnes and noble it's pre order right at the moment it's gonna be May second, it will be launched, but it's Blue Star Grit.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: A mother's journey of triumph and tragedy raising a defiant child into an exceptional leader.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and so you can pre order if you pre-ordered. Now, there's a a free workshop that comes with it. So you have to just send me your screenshot, your your sale.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and then I will put you on a list and on May I believe I think if you go on my website site, Ginny luther.com. It has link it all in the show. I I believe it's on the

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: twenty-second of, and that's a live workshop. It's in person live.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's a live workshop, and it's it's called from Defiance to Compliance

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Ryann Watkin: Amazing. It's online or it's in person.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: It's gonna be a zoom it's gonna be a zoom. Oh, amazing, okay, great. I'll make sure to get all those links. I You know I have them somewhere, and i'll put them in the show notes that way people can join.

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Ryann Watkin: Yeah, it's just been a tremendous journey to read this book. As this episode heirs, the book will be released the next day. So if you're listening to this on the day, and er the book comes out tomorrow, so we'll put that link in the show notes, too, so you can grab it

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if you're really excited. Pre. Order it today. If not, you can get it regular tomorrow. Thank you so much, Jenny, for all that you do for who you are for sharing your story. I know it's going to help so many people. It certainly has provided me just this

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Ryann Watkin: discomfort and inspiration and empowerment really to like you said so i'm going to ask you the 3 questions that I ask everybody at the end of my interviews. What's bringing you joy today?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: The weather I love being out in nature. So when it's this beautiful, it's not too hot. It's just gorgeous.

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Ryann Watkin: It is such a beautiful spring day. You're just a little north of me in Florida, and we're having some nice springy weather before it gets too hot. What if anything. Are you reading right now?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I'm. Actually there's a couple of things i'm reading a book called Sapiens.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and it's all about how mankind became mankind with one species, and it's really interesting. It's archaeolog, you know the an archaeologist wrote the book, and it's just fascinating to see our behavior and how it relates to.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and how we became the species that we became by

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: our movement transition how we had a cognitive culture and a agricultural revolution and a cognitive revolution. But it's just really interesting. But that's the kind of stuff I like to read

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: so very cool.

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Ryann Watkin: And then last question is, Who or what have you learned the most from

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I would. That's a hard question to answer. I bet everybody says that

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I don't know. I know this sounds crazy, but i'm gonna say for myself.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: I've learned so much from myself and all my behavior, you know I I just watching myself and

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: watching how I've what I do in every moment, and how I learn to do it differently, because I have to check in with myself. To say, is this what I really want right now? What do I really want right now, connection or control?

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: So I've got plenty of people around me from Bart to Becky Bailey to

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: politicians that give me many opportunities to learn.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: And so I look at struggle as growth. So when you're feeling the struggle, it's, it really is the growth. So it feels yucky at the moment but something better can come on the other side

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: to snow that

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Ryann Watkin: so beautiful. I've been saying lately. There's 86,400 s in a day. And so, you know, maybe if you're lucky, you're sleeping for a bit of that, and I've as in mom of 3 kids, i'm not getting so much sleep. But so that's like, let's call it 60,000 s in a day, which is 60,000 opportunities to come

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Ryann Watkin: back to center, and you know. Choose again and try again.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: and you'll still get forever. Just so you know it. Just there's more acceptance and less judgment. That's what happens. You you'll keep doing it. It's just more acceptance, less judgment.

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Ryann Watkin: Well, we've got that to look forward to, then, folks, I mean, I think that's a great point. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you've shared with us today. Jenny, you're just an amazing human.

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ginnyluther@gmail.com: Well, thank you for having me on the show. I feel very honored, and i'm wishing you well.

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Ryann Watkin: Thanks so much.

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Ryann Watkin: Oh.