Today I'm talking with Susan Schwartz, PhD in a conversation that promises to illuminate the mind and nourish the soul. Susan helps us stitch together the threads of Jungian analysis and the complex fabric of the human experience.
Learn more about Susan's work here.
If you feel inspired please consider sharing this episode with a friend, writing a 5⭐️ review or becoming a Raising Wild Hearts Member here!
Today I'm talking with Susan Schwartz, PhD in a conversation that promises to illuminate the mind and nourish the soul. Susan helps us stitch together the threads of Jungian analysis and the complex fabric of the human experience.
Learn more about Susan's work here.
If you feel inspired please consider sharing this episode with a friend, writing a 5⭐️ review or becoming a Raising Wild Hearts Member here!
In Jungian psychology. Jung called it the process of individuation. Now that doesn't mean be yourself and don't pay attention to anyone else. It means be all that you are so that you are in relationship and as healthy as possible with other people and other cultures and other countries. So it's a self and other individuation process.
Speaker 2:Welcome, revolutionary Mama, to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. I'm Ryan Watkin, educator, mom of three, revel at heart and passionate soul, on a mission to empower and inspire you.
Speaker 2:Here we'll explore psychology, spirituality, parenthood and the intersection where they all come together. We'll discover how challenges can be fertile soil for growth and that even in the messy middle of motherhood, we can find magic in the mundane. Join me on my own personal journey as I talk to experts and share resources on education, creativity, self-care, family, culture and more. I believe we can change the world by starting at home in our own minds and hearts, and that when we do, we'll be passing down the most important legacy there is Healing, and so it is. Hello friends, welcome back to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast and I have to say, happy New Year. The episode today is airing on New Year's Day, so if you're listening on New Year's Day, happy New Year.
Speaker 2:We're almost through the holiday break here. My kiddos go back to their co-op later this week. We've got a birthday this week. My oldest is turning nine, which is like wow, it just it sounds so old, it's kind of wild. So yeah, lots of fun, fun things going on here.
Speaker 2:Hope you guys are having an amazing holiday season. I hope you're finding joy even amidst the chaos. We speaking of chaos, our family moved, we put our home on the market to see what happened and two weeks later we were moving into our new home Really really wild and exciting and beautiful stuff for us. So that's a big thing that's been happening. The holidays have been beautiful and wonderful and they're still kind of going on. So, yeah, I hope you are having a great season, no matter what season you're in, because we I am finding myself in a season of a little bit of chaos and, yeah, finding the calm through that has been a journey. The past few weeks in particular. Moving is can be very stressful and there's lots of logistical things that need to happen and lots of upheaval, and I've really looked at it as a way to reset, repurpose, re-clarify, get rid of and let go a lot of different things. So for me it's very symbolic. So, yeah, I think today's conversation is just so perfectly aligned with it.
Speaker 2:I talk a little bit about the move in it, I talk about parenting, I talk about my love for psychology and let me tell you about my guest today. It's Susan Schwartz, phd. She was trained in Zurich, switzerland, as a Jungian analyst and is also a clinical psychologist and a member of the International Association of Analytical Psychology. I mentioned in the episode how much I have been interested in psychology since psych 101 in college and really for me, I've just continued to read books and I find it very fascinating and the journey that I've gone on through myself, really starting with my acute post-partum depression following the birth of my first child, has been this like just rocket launch into knowing myself, healing different aspects within myself, and so this was just such a fun conversation it was.
Speaker 2:I could talk to Susan for hours and hours, and so maybe I will have Susan on again. She also wrote books entitled the Absent Father Effect on Daughters, father Desire, father Wounds, and also her newest book is called the Imposter Syndrome and the as if personality, the fragility of self. Her Jungian political practice is in Paradise Valley, arizona, and you can find more about her at susanschwartzphdcom, which I will put in the show notes. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode as much as I did. Happy New Year and I will talk to you guys next week. Susan Schwartz, welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for having me, Ryan.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being here. I'm very, very excited to talk to you. I've been in love with psychology since psych 101 in college. It was my favorite class. I remember very distinctly, so I would love to jump in with. Who is Carl Jung and why did you decide to become a Jungian analyst?
Speaker 1:Well, Carl Jung himself was a psychiatrist and one of the.
Speaker 1:He began not following Freud, but collaborating with him in the early 1900s and developed his own you could say offshoot from the beginning of psychoanalysis, and it is called Jungian analytical psychology because analysis means a deeper look at the psyche than your psychology 101.
Speaker 1:So it is looking at whatever the issues are presenting us in our life, but looking at the meaning of them and how they are manifesting themselves within us, what we have, how we were raised, what we've inherited from our generational pasts and how we can manifest and use our energy in the present and the future. What analysis does and Jungian analysis is brings in the unconscious. So we don't just operate out of our conscious or what we think we know, but we operate out of our unconscious, which, every single night in our dreams, gives us information. The interactions we have with people give us information, conscious and unconscious, and the point is to be as aware of oneself as possible. So it's really a search that's always interesting, not always easy, but interesting in the transformation of oneself to be all that we are. That's a short yeah, it's a very short rendition of the depths of the psyche that we all have.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's the short answer. That's amazing. So there are so many places we could take it. You said the meaning of issues. So the issues we're having in our lives, do you believe that there is always meaning, regardless of the issue a death in the family, financial issue, parenting relationship Is there always always a meaning, or are there exceptions to the rule?
Speaker 1:Well, my subjective answer is that I think there's always meaning and the reason I say that is when you realize that you're not just in something just because it landed on your head, but that there's a reason for it and that you can find the reason, or the many reasons. It makes more sense, it gives a depth of being, rather than I'm just some victim of a horrible story or a good story, but it really makes one much more of a participant in life and, I think, therefore more challenging and more exciting. So, yes, I really believe there is meaning in everything. I always think so. What is the meaning of our brief meeting? How will this enhance life for you, for me, for the people that listen to the podcast? And again, we don't know everything about meaning, but for sure there's meaning because, again, we are not just randomly here. We must be here, hopefully to understand more about life and being and life stages.
Speaker 2:Right? So when someone is on a search for their purpose and perhaps they've felt like they're not quite sure what their purpose is, or they're seeking a career that's a fit, or they're finding purpose in motherhood, how does that play into all of this? Because when you describe some of these things, the first thing that came to mind was oh, it's our purpose for being here. We're here for a reason. All of us, every single one of us, right? So are there as many different purposes as there are people? And where do we start? Are there square one in each of us finding our individual purpose?
Speaker 1:Well, wouldn't we? Doesn't our purpose alter and change throughout life? So some people find you know, some people know what they want to do when they're 10 years old and they develop it and do it. Other people the purpose evolves and changes, morphs throughout life, is a continual expansion, you could say from knowing themselves, more and more and more. And yeah, I think the purpose evolves. I think it makes life more exciting and it brings in the mystery, because we don't know what our purpose really is when we are 15, but we might know something about it and then it will evolve. Some people think, well, I'm going to be a parent and then they're not. Then the question is right why are they not? Or why are they? And we all have to face that place of I want to be this and that's not what I'm going to be. I'm not going to meet this person, but I'm going to meet somebody else. So, again, it's something that we could say we have in our mind and we have to let things evolve as they do.
Speaker 2:Right. I wonder if you could get on board with a statement like our purpose is to know ourselves throughout life. Maybe that's part of it is figuring out why the things are happening to us, the meaning behind the issues, Like perhaps that is the purpose.
Speaker 1:Well, you know it's interesting. You say that One of the phrases that is most often used in any analytical and psychological work is know thyself. Know thyself, and it's an old phrase from the Greeks. I think it was Socrates who said the unexamined life is not worth living. So this knowing yourself, finding your purpose, is really a huge task. And again it means that we live in a mundane way and we also live in a very special way. So each of us I mean many people might have a similar purpose, but with each one it's going to manifest differently because we are all quite different people. In Jungian psychology, jung called it the process of individuation. Now, that doesn't mean be yourself and don't pay attention to anyone else. It means be all that you are so that you are in relationship and as healthy as possible with other people and other cultures and other countries. So it's a self and other individuation process.
Speaker 2:I see I love how you say self and other, because we can sometimes view it as selfishness or you know which gets a bad rap clearly. So I want to double click on that individuation piece and I think about it right now as a parent, because I'm raising three kids and I realize that they're separate from me and I realize that they're separate from each other and yet we're still a family unit of five, and so it's a very, it's a tightrope that we're walking here, facilitating our children's individuation and letting them have their opinions and their likes and dislikes and preferences and quirks and neuroses, right. So let's if we could talk about individuation through the lens of parenting. Perhaps how can we best suit ourselves to be the best parents to allow our kids to individuate, which I think could be a very natural process if we just let it unfold. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:I'm going to agree with you.
Speaker 1:I think that being oneself is a natural process.
Speaker 1:It is a process that it is difficult for many parents to allow their children to be who they want to be, partly because Jung says this the unlived life of the parent oftentimes is transferred onto the child as well as the this is in the Bible, I think, but Jung talks about it as well.
Speaker 1:The sins of the parents go to the third and the fourth generation. But I want to expand on that and say it is also the gems of the parents that go to the third and the fourth generation. Or we could say that it is the parents being as aware as they can of who they are and how their children each one, as you said, is very different from the other and different from the parents. So the children oftentimes will develop something the parents never thought about, or they will be quite different than the parent thought they should be. The trick and again I think you know this as a parent is to really allow the freedom that is inherent in all of us to flourish in your children, and their freedom is to be all that they are. It's a very being a parent. Care is such a responsibility, and one has to have so much integrity and self-confidence to instill into the children as well.
Speaker 2:Right, that is the truth, and I love how you pointed out that the gems go down to the third and fourth generation as well, because the hard stuff, the intergenerational trauma, so to speak, is very sticky and it's easy to get stuck on that.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, you know, trauma is a huge word that also is used so frequently now. But I also wonder if it's used a lot, because a lot of people are recognizing that they've experienced some trauma. It's not just the trauma. We all have traumas, big ones, little ones. In other words, we all have wounding and wounded places. But the question is how we are going to deal with them, not as victims, but as people who will access our own healing potential and that is really the point of any analytical work is to find the healing for the traumatic events that have happened to us and how we are going to manifest ourselves through the wounding and learning from it and growing from it.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like when you, when you get hurt, when you're a child, and you fall and you have a scar. The scars sometimes doesn't go away, but the scar heals. And that's true of trauma as well, the traumas from the past generations. Each generation is to heal the old, a bit and a bit, and a bit at a time. The scars might still be there, but they don't interfere with one's life, one just recognizes that they're there.
Speaker 2:Right. Do you think there is an uprising, so to speak, of consciousness right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, what? Well, let me, let me say this I think it's a good question. I think that there is, in a way, more awareness of the psychology of people, more awareness of, in a way, the value of being a person. There is also a sign that is not very aware and, culturally, quite a bit of anger and frustration, non development, you could say globally. Are we aware when there are so many wars, so much dissension, so much this one is against that one for many, many reasons?
Speaker 1:I think we are at quite a crossroads and a difficult time. I'm not sure that, because being conscious is a whole process. It's not easy, and I think a lot of people would like to turn away and say, oh, it's because of so and so that I'm unhappy. No, that really isn't the reason, but it's much easier to project on to others that they've caused our misery. I think I'm not really sure that we are more conscious. I think that we have more opportunities to be more conscious. I'm not sure that we as a country are really using them. So right, yeah, you could, we could go both ways on it. Yeah, yeah, we're very privileged in many ways and in many ways we don't use it correctly.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I always say that we can change the world by starting at home, and that's, you know, it just starts with us, and it can feel frustrating to be doing this work and becoming aware of ourselves and then still seeing the war, the political things, the division, and so those things that we see externally are still a part of us internally. And so I think that's the work for us to you know, to heal the war within ourselves, to heal the division within ourselves, and that is, I mean, in your opinion, is that a lifetime of work? I mean, is that, is it ever done?
Speaker 1:No, I don't think it's ever done, because it's always a challenge and living should be a challenge. But you, the conflict within. Jung calls it holding the tension of the opposite. So, if you think about it, it's so difficult to hold opposite viewpoints. Well, let's say the range of opposite viewpoints and just hold them and let them be there, not having to take one side or the other, but really be there, but really being with the information, and from that something else evolves. So, if you can, really if you know when you're in conflict, should I do this, should I do that? Okay, sit with it. We say sometimes, sleep on it, see what evolves in the morning, something will evolve. And also, when you're in conflict, you might have a dream which will help you resolve the conflict If you're open to it.
Speaker 2:How do we be open to it then?
Speaker 1:Well, it takes a little courage, doesn't it? Sure does. Yeah, it takes courage. You know it'd be like if one of your children came home from school with, you know, some challenging comment or how come you believe this way, or what's going on? And you know, children come up with very wise things that always challenge us to think and evaluate and we don't know the answer. Or what they want is really a conflict for us. And then how are we going to just sit with it? I think also, if we become very aware of how we are feeling, also how we are feeling in our bodies, and do we teach our children to become aware of their body feelings also. You know, analysis is not just a head trip. Analysis is a body, mind and soul trip, so it involves the entire system. And if you learn to listen to how you feel, also in your body, you'll be a more responsive person, more responsible, and you'll have ways of managing the conflict and handling it.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think you know I can speak for myself. I was raised not necessarily to be embodied, I was raised to, you know, put more emphasis on my thinking brain, my mind, my intellect, and so you know, one of the things now is like trying to achieve that balance. Not achieve but trying to, I guess, be aware of the balance that it is body, mind and spirit. It's a you know, so, do you believe? This brings me to a question that I've been chewing on for a really long time. Do you believe in balance? And what is kind of the Jungian perspective on balance? Is it a thing, is it not a thing?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, the word balance isn't exactly mentioned that often in Jungian psychology. I think it is more the continual, you could almost say. One gets balanced and then you fall off the track and then you get back on the track and in that way you keep on learning about yourself. So, as you said, you got raised to manifest the mind. So the balance would be to manifest the body along with the mind. We all have different tasks, so our tasks would be a balance that never stays completely balanced. It's always going to move because life is movement and it will always need to be rebalancing throughout life. If you're going to be taking, hopefully take care of the body self once whole life, but you might be doing it differently at one point than at another. So, the same thing with your mind. You want to take care of your mind your whole life as well, you know, so that you're constantly, always growing.
Speaker 2:Right, can we talk about the role of parents in a child's life? I loved when you one of my favorite quotes is the one you mentioned a bit ago the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlift life of its mother, or I don't know if it was parent, but so let's parent. Okay, so let's talk about the role of mother and then also father, because I'm assuming that they play different roles in your eyes, or is it the same?
Speaker 1:Well, let's put it this way, that the a child needs nurturing parents and guiding parents, kind parents, loving parents, whoever they are. So I think in in who's ever taking the role of fathers or mothers, the caregivers they both have got or all of them, however many have gone really a responsibility again, as we were saying, to listen to the children and to listen to themselves as well and know how to be able to guide, love, care for, in an imperfect way, but with a lot of good intention. You know, I wrote a book called the absent father effect on daughters, father desire, father wounds. I would extend that to say sons would be included and also we could say mothers would be. So absence, in the sense of if the parent isn't present emotionally, or if the parent is not present physically, or if the parent is preoccupied, this creates an absence and then the child is going to always be trying to fill the absence and the task then of the child is to fill the absence with something valuable and is present. The task of parents is to be present. I think it is more difficult now because the cell phone keeps texting or we feel that we need to check out social media and the child is standing there doing what, waiting for us to pay attention.
Speaker 1:So I think that this presence of being is incredibly important for parents. The parent can be there physically, but if they're not there emotionally, it's going to create a space, a gap, a psychic hole in the life of the child. And children learn to cope, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be happy and it leads to desire to be healed and to be, you know, feeling better. But I think that the parents being very aware of are they really present? You know, if you're going to play a game with the child, are you going to be there? Are you thinking about something else? And children know if you're not really focused on them. So it's that psychological absence, or psychological presence that is incredibly important, both for parents and children.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's.
Speaker 2:We just went through a move here and we've been so consumed with you know the logistics of the move and the you know actual moving and the finances and the paperwork you know, and it we my husband and I like were like, wow, this is just crazy.
Speaker 2:We're just in survival mode and we were aware of it and yet it we still just did the best we could and put the TV on more than we could and we're on our phones when our kids were looking up at us, and so you know, and it's imperfect, like you said as well, and there we go. The balance, and I think that we are aware of it, is a half the battle, so to speak. But I just wonder how we can get better at presence as individuals and collectively too, because I've seen the I don't know. It was like kind of a cartoon where the kid is kind of walking around and all he sees are these zombie adults like in their phones, and he's just staring up with his little childlike yearning to be seen and heard. So I think this is a big, big problem, I think so I think so From what you're saying.
Speaker 1:So I have a couple of things to add. One is that you know our, I think our culture, our Western United States culture. There are more people walking around who are numb or this is part of the absence as well. They're numb, they're like zombies, you know. If you ask them, how do you feel? They probably don't know, because they are numb to their feelings. They're maybe too many drugs, too much alcohol, too much beer, too much sugar, who knows whatever, and so that numbness is kind of in that little cartoon you were. It's like a psychic deadness being numb. I think.
Speaker 1:Also, you know, when you say you're yourself with your children, well, children are always open to talk or draw out their feelings, and whether you talk about it this week or next, how did we all move? How do we all feel? What's going on? Children love to be paid attention to. I mean, you know that because you're a parent and I think that, even though there was this time that was had to be spent on the phone and taking care of things, it sounds to me like you talk to your children. So why should I say anything to you about it? But some people might not realize that they can talk to their kids at any moment. It doesn't have to be at the exact time. You can talk to your children in a month and say, wow, how are we all doing, how did we all survive? How did you survive? You, you, you and children will respond because then they're being paid attention to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes me smile. I'm just like, yes, you know, it's always um, I have this perfectionism thing and maybe we can get into. I, you know, I grew up fatherless and I think that can be part of the desire to be now making up for that hole. I think it was a psychic hole that you called it. So, yeah, I see it playing out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So let me let me just um your, your word. Perfectionism, I think, is maybe one of the veins of our Western existence, because it gets promoted consciously and unconsciously and we do tend to pick it up, like you said, when there's an absence completely in one parent or the other. But it also might be that perfectionism it's a question what is it trying to make up for? And, um, I had another book called the imposter syndrome and the as if personality, and in both of those there is this pressure to be perfect, because you're feeling, if I'm just me, maybe I'm not good enough and it's, it's um, in a way it's like the bane of our existence, because nobody can tell you yes, you're good, you did great at that.
Speaker 1:It has to be something that you learn from inside and it has to do with acceptance that you're not a perfect parent, but you are a good enough parent and not a perfect person, but really good enough. And the places that are not good enough are the places of growth. So we need those, otherwise we'll be static. It makes, I think, what I'm saying is to take from perfectionism and grow from it into a reality of I'm okay, I'm okay, but I can do marvelous things. So you see, not being perfect, being perfect doesn't mean you do anything marvelous. It's much more the acceptance of your qualities, some of which are stellar, some of which are not so good, but it's the acceptance that really allows you to go where you want to go in your life.
Speaker 2:Right. So before the acceptance comes, the awareness, and what is your take on? Is it like AA? So awareness, acceptance, action, like. What's your take on this action step once we start to become aware of ourselves and accept? Is there an action piece in your mind or is it?
Speaker 1:Well, yes, no, no, no, there is, of course. So I've mentioned dreams. I mean, you're not just. I mean we dream every night. So it's not just recognizing that we dream it's. Are you going to write down the dream? Are you going to take a little time and just write your feelings about that dream? Are you going to share that dream with partner? Maybe you have a dream about your children. Are you going to share it with them? What is it going to reveal? So there, it's not just to be aware it is. What are you going to do with it? How will you manifest it in your life and use the information in awareness to enhance your world? No, there definitely needs to be an action.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, there's a phrase from the I guess a Babylonian Talmud or a Bible that says an unopened letter. It speaks about an unopened letter and what that feels like. You get a letter, but the letter remains unopened. It's like not opening oneself to one's value, and perfectionism does not open to value. It just opens to try to do things perfect. It doesn't let you find your value.
Speaker 2:Right, I've been having very vivid dreams for a bit of a stretch now and I keep telling myself that I'm going to wake up and journal on them, and I haven't consistently done that yet. But in the morning I will reflect after I've had a dream and kind of go back through it and then figure out the sensation that I was feeling. So what was the emotion associated with it? Yes, yeah, that's something that's been helpful.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. But let me also say that what another helpful part of that is when you wake up in the morning and you remember your dream, or in the middle of the night, if you record it somewhere. So a lot of people record their dreams in their phones and they wake up and then they add to it, so it's like a journal in the phone in a certain way, and it's the beautiful use of technology to make it work for you and be helpful. But I also think that those dreams that you've been having now because you've just moved, so at times of transition, we oftentimes get quite powerful dreams. So that might be part of what's going on, but you won't exactly remember the dreams five years from now and you might want to.
Speaker 1:So if they get recorded somewhere in some fashion, you can go back and remember the dreams, or you might even dream I don't know what you dream about but maybe of your children or your life or whatever, and it might be something that you want to share with your children, with your husband, with whomever, and I think that helps expand one's life. There's a tribe of Indians called the Senoi Indians and they were known for every morning the tribe would gather and they would share their dreams. It's quite a lovely thing. So I don't know if you ask your children about their dreams and do they want to share them. I mean they might say yes, they might say no, but they know to them to honor what's going on unconsciously. And if you learn it young it's, it'll always help be able to figure out the world.
Speaker 2:What a beautiful practice over breakfast time. What did you dream about? My husband? Yeah, my husband and I periodically have asked our kids what did you dream about? And, of course, parents will relate to this. We hear a lot about the scary dreams or the, you know, the ones that wake them up in the night. Mom, I had a scary dream. Can I lay with you? I find that fascinating because and sometimes to the happy ones, but more often the scary ones I wonder why that is.
Speaker 1:Well, the scary ones are probably coming from, maybe a place in the collective unconscious. This is Jung's kind of piece, the collective unconscious, something that is from a deeper level that we all share. Like it's not uncommon for all of us to have, when we're little, to have dreams of the, which. That might be the difficult side of the mother, or the soldier that's coming after us with a gun. That might be the difficult side of the father figure. So I think the scary ones want to be known. And what is different with children? Children are closer to the collective unconscious. We, as we get older, we have too many defenses so we're not as close. But children are like right there, they're in the forest with the witch and this and that, and yeah, so to have someone listen means that that dream is being honored and it helps deal with fear. I mean, you know, when you're a little kid, everything is so big in the world that you feel too tiny. So I think that's where those dreams come from, and the nightmares nightmares as well.
Speaker 2:So are we equipped to analyze our own dreams, analyze our own psyche, or like I guess, what is your thought just on the average person who's got, you know, fairly good mental health, who's kind of up and down but like do? Can we really dive into this ourselves? And maybe what are some resources that you recommend as we go on this journey of individuation?
Speaker 1:Well, I think we only get so far by ourselves because we all have our defenses. As I mentioned, we all have our ways of avoiding ourselves and we're pretty adept at doing so. We also live in a culture that promotes avoidance of the inner world. You know, americans are very extroverted, so the inner world oftentimes gets ignored. I think if people can learn and they learn it usually in therapy or analysis how to really look at themselves, you don't learn it really alone, can't exactly learn the process with family, because it's a very different process of going inside in a therapeutic or analytical way. But if you can't do that, you definitely can gain by reading different books analytical, psychological books, novels of you know the stories of all times. You know some of the writers that write stories that it doesn't matter if it happened in 1600 or in 2023, that people are people and I think that helps as well. And I think there also is a realistic piece that you never really totally get there. So that blows the perfectionistic story. You just can't do it enough or perfectly enough, and you're not supposed to. You're supposed to have places that are always open and that have holes, and that helps everybody do their search. So some people will.
Speaker 1:Some people do meditation, which is not really internal work. It's a different inner work. People find their own path and I think that, as a parent, you want to encourage children to honor their inner worlds, not be afraid, even if it's a nightmare, but to realize how they can cope, that they can cope and that they're strong enough to do so. So, yeah, there's not really, yeah, there's not really a substitute for therapy or analysis, but if we are open enough, we learn from life, and if we get from our family the foundation to be able to explore ourselves and others, we will do so throughout our lives. So that's, I think, part of the responsibility of parents is to encourage children to honor their interior world.
Speaker 2:I love that. So, as we start to wrap up, Susan, I'm going to ask you the three questions I ask everyone at the end of the interview. The first one is what, if anything, are you reading right now?
Speaker 1:What am I reading? Well, I'm reading Jung's red book, which is a rendition of his writings and his drawings, actually of his descent into the unconscious and what his descent brought forward. And the book is interesting because it's not just him. Many people have similar images, similar conflict, fights with the unconscious and how to get through the powerful images that the unconscious is presenting. And I'm also reading a book on narcissism, which is one of the psychological issues of our era. So that's what I'm reading currently.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So is that reading just for fun? I mean, is it like, is there like a beech reed, or is it like Jung, your beech reed?
Speaker 1:You know I'm very interested in the interior world and I do read novels as well oftentimes of people that live different places or different times. But I'm very interested in what the unconscious presents to us. So that's part of why I'm reading that, and it relates to my next writing as well, on narcissism, so that's why I'm doing it. I think what I'm saying is I'm following my desire for knowledge.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm saying, that's beautiful. So not to read a book because it's a top seller or because it's advertised like the summer read, et cetera, et cetera. It's following I love that phrase following your desire for knowledge. Yes, that's what it is. Yeah, that's beautiful. The second question is what's bringing you joy today?
Speaker 1:Oh, what's bringing me joy? Wow, what a great question. I'm going to ask you do you ask that to your children? What's bringing you joy today? Is that a great question? It's wonderful, that's a good question. Yes, it's a great question. Well, where I am actually it's cloudy, and so what is bringing me joy is looking at the cloudiness, because it doesn't usually happen. I'm in Arizona and so it's usually sunny, so the unusual is bringing me joy.
Speaker 2:Oh, great answer. I love that. And then the last question is who or what have you learned the most from?
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, what a great question as well. Oh my gosh, what if I don't know? I think it's been, let me say, a series of people who I'll put it this way who've written about the inner world and have sparked my interest in the inner world. I'll mention one writer she was with Carl Jung at the beginning, marie-louise von Franz, and she wrote on fairy tales, and this also relates to children. The story of the fairy tale is really the story of our life process and the process of individuation. So reading about it ignites one's imagination and to me that provides a great deal of learning to me, because my imagination gets sparked from that as well.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. There's something so universal about a fairy tale or the hero's journey Like we can all, no matter circumstances. I think we can all relate to that. That's yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, susan, for coming here and sharing your wisdom and your words and your heart. I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:And thank you very much for such thoughtful questions and a wonderful discussion. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.